Genealogy Chat

With a name like McDonald, I would think you'll have to narrow things down, so here's a family from FreeCEN, followed by the use of batch #s to limit the search to a specific register in a specific parish church.

Piece: SCT1841/218 Place: Longside -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Longside Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 6
Address: Hillhead Of Mintlaw
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
SLESSOR Wm M 55 Carrier Aberdeenshire
SLESSOR Chris F 45 Aberdeenshire
Page: 1/7 SLESSOR Jane F 10 Aberdeenshire
SLESSOR John M 8 Aberdeenshire
SLESSOR Jas M 6 Aberdeenshire

Piece: SCT1851/218 Place: Longside -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Longside Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 176 Page: 21 Schedule: 100
Address: Hill Of Mintlaw
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
SLESSOR William Head M M 66 Farmer Of 15 Acres & Carrier Aberdeenshire - Longside
SLESSOR Christian Wife M F 52 Aberdeenshire - Old Deer
SLESSOR Mary Dau U F 26 Aberdeenshire - Longside
Page: 176/22 SLESSOR John D Son U M 17 Farmer & Carrier's Son Aberdeenshire - Longside
GREIG Christian Grndau - F 2 Aberdeenshire - Longside
[The parish # for Longside (Aberdenshire) is 218 - it's part of the header above]


Using https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND

So lets look up Christian Greig at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1771030
gets 3034 hits for Christian Greig
Entering the batch # C112185 reduces this to 1 hit.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYXP-12Q
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11218-5 , System Origin: Scotland-ODM , GS Film number: 993340

Just entering Greig & the batch # c112185 gets 116 hits including a sibling
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYXR-PL4

Just entering Greig & c112181 gets 82 hits including 2 siblings
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYTL-9JL

I can search for John Greig and William Slessor's marrs at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1771074
Only get a hit for Wm
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTR1-NYM (21/12/1820)

Now repeat the search naming the spouse, but drop the batch # - I get another hit for Wm
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJM-J3G (23/12/1820)
and one for John & Margt:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTR1-NYM (14/12/1848)

Two marrs for Wm & Christy?? - well, not really - FS doesn't always distinguish between marrs and banns. Christy was from Old Deer psh and Wm was from Logside psh, so banns would be read in both places - the marr would usually take place in the bride's psh (as here).
The road from the Hillhead to Mintlaw village was the parish boundary for the majority of its length

Alternatively, now I know the parents, I can just use them to search. This gets the above 4 hits, plus my g grandad (pob=Rathen parish #=235)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTR1-NYM
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYG1-54Q

Ooops - I thought I'ld already posted this - I know some of the following info is now posted, so apologies for the duplication.


Susan - it would really help searching the CEF attestations if you spent the money at SP to get his b.cert.


SP is ScotlandsPeople - it's where you buy OPR (Old Parish Register) & census images & BMD certs:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Re BMD certs - if the B/M/D is over 100/75/50 y old, one has the option of buying a formal paper extract or certificate (thru the GROS/NRS) or an uncertified image of the page in the local registrar's register thru SP.
The latter costs abt 1.40 GBP (SP's usual charge for most of their images) - the former costs 10 GBP and upwards, but it's what you'ld need for a passport, say - see:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/family-records/leaflet-s2.pdf

Here's a list of SP's offerings:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&413

There's a more detailed listing of OPR availability at:
http://www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/research/list-of-oprs.html

Although the only online source for census images is SP, Ancestry and FMP have transcriptions online, but you need to buy a sub for them.
Most of 1841 is free online at:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/

Coverage for later years varies with location - see:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/statistics.html
The details at http://www.freecen.org.uk/statistics.html show precisely what is covered, e.g.,:
Piece Place Comprising Status Remarks
SCT1841/602 Largs Largs On-Line
RG9/2767 Standish Standish
RG9/2768 Standish Standish , Eccleston
RG12/3045 Wigan Standish & Langtree On-Line
RG12/3046 Wigan Parbold , Shevington , Standish & Langtree , Worthington , Wrightlington

In England, the census was ordered by piece #, and each rego district had a block of piece #s, which they assigned to their subdistricts, so usually each subdistrict had 1 or more piece #s to itself. In the above eg, Standish had 2 in 1861 and in 1891.
As the population increased, subdistricts got more piece #s, so the #s changed from census to census.
Scotland organized a lot of things by civil parish - mostly they were smaller in popul'n than English subdistricts, so there's no need to keep renumbering them.
The only problem arose with the big cities, and there they handled the problem by adding a suffix e.g., Aberdeen/Old Machar gets 168a/b, Edinburgh/St Cuthberts/Canongate gets 685/1, /2 or /3, etc.
[Note the Largs psh #, 602, forms part of the ref# in greyghost's post (2 Sep 2014 16:12)]

The parish # can be used incensus searches - enter it in place of the piece # at FreeCEN, or in its box at Ancestry:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1004
It's also incorporated into the batch # for C of S christenings & marrs at FS - atch # usually has the form:
C11pppn or M11pppn, but if there's too many registers (like in big cities), the recipe faild.
ppp is the parish #, with leading zeros in the far north.
n is a register n - theses are 2,4,5,6,7,8,9 pre-1855, and 1, 3 for 1855-1875ish - the lower the #, the older it is in the sequence - not all of the sequences are used, typically.
[MB post 1855, they're not OPR entries, but GROS index entries]

Here's my g gran:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBW6-GV4
Name: Elizabeth Johnston
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 04 Jan 1854
Christening Place: LONMAY,ABERDEEN,SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 25 Nov 1853
Father's Name: James Johnston
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Anderson
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11219-5 , System Origin: Scotland-ODM , GS Film number: 993429

Even if you've gotten this much, it can still be worth purchasing the image of the original entry.
In this case, it says:
Lonmay OPR 1854
25th November 1854
Elizabeth Johnston, illegitimate daughter of James
Johnston Farm Servant Adie, Cruden & Elizabeth Anderson
Crisekelly, was born 25th November 1853, & baptized by Mr.
Gibbon 4th January 1854 before witnesses viz: William
Anderson & Elizabeth Scott, Crisekelly

[Adie is probably a misrecording of Adnie, and 1853 in text should probably be 1854 as per heading. The witnesses were Eliz J's grandparents]


There are 1890s maps for every Scottish county showing parishes at:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/

hm, you're welcome Susan

I have taken JoonieCloonie's advice and deleted the info about the wrong John. I have kept the birth I found to let other searchers know that this is the wrong person and not to bother following the family up.

In future, please post all relevant information in your opening post ie year and place of birth, parents' names, spouse's name and where you get your information from.

This way you have much less chance of getting irrelevant information sent to you.

<3

how do I delete threads which are not relevent, ie not my relative?

here is your father's first marriage

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Marriages Sep 1915
Macdonald John Walton Atcham 6a 1725
Walton Florence F Macdonald Atcham 6a 1725

there is a Florence F Walton marriage in 1932, but it seems not to be your Florence because
- there was another Florence F(reda) Walton born, in 1907
- your Florence's first married surname would likely have been entered in the record of a second marriage

this would be your Florence's birth

Births Sep 1885
Walton Florence Frances Northampton 3b 53

but I don't see a Florence F Mc/Macdonald death at Ancestry to match that birth

she might have partnered with another man and used his surname, and her death could be registered under that name

it can be possible to identify a death in such a case using just given names and exact date of birth to search the deaths index - but full middle names and exact dob are only shown after 1969, so she would have had to live to 85 for that to be possible to identify

if you obtained her birth certificate, or if you know her date of birth, it could be tried

there is actually only one Florence Frances death with birthdate that matches a birth registered in September quarter 1885 (i.e. late May to end of Sept 1885)

Florence Frances Fowler (23 aug 1885), died 1969 Bristol

I don't see a marriage for a Florence F to a Fowler, or a birth of a Florence F Fowler in or around 1885, so this could possibly be your Florence

if you got your Florence's birth certificate you would know her date of birth
if it matched with that death, the death certificate would tell you who registered the death and this could help to find more info

(someone has a Florence Walton born 1885 Grimsbury Northamptonshire in their tree here at genesreunited, but that is a different Florence)


to try to find John in Canadian military records you would have to go to the site I posted above and look through all the search results for John Mc/Macdonalds, for those with a birthdate in 1889, and then look at the image for those Johns to see whether the info on the attestation papers matches your John (mother's name, place of birth, etc.)

The MacDonald/McDonald thing is interesting (I think).
My g gran was Elizabeth Johnston.
This is the spelling on her baptism, and the one she used on her marr, and the one my g uncle Allan used when rego'ing my grandad & his parents' deaths.
However, Eliz had 6 kids - two were rego'ed by her, and 4 by my g grandad. Each used the spelling Johnstone once.
My grandad used the spelling Johnstone on his marr, and his bro's death - he also gave my aunt the forenames Elizabeth Johnstone.
It seems there was a state of flux.

On Sp's homepage http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ there's a searchbox that says howmany (and what) hits you'll get for any name.

Putting in Johnston, then Johnstone gets:
Census 1841 12726 matches, then Census 1841 3450 matches
with a bit of calculation, I get:

1841 Total 16136 Johnstone 21.3%
1851 Total 18358 Johnstone 25.7%
1861 Total 19648 Johnstone 28.1%
1871 Total 21608 Johnstone 33.1%
1881 Total 24542 Johnstone 38.0%
1891 Total 27003 Johnstone 40.6%
1901 Total 29582 Johnstone 43.3%
1911 Total 31149 Johnstone 42.0%

Clearly there's a fair # of Johnston's adopting the spelling Johnstone.
[There was also a shift from Slesser to Slessor]

Since we started our example with Cristian, named after her gran, I tried just a forename:

Christian
Census 1841 22569 matches
Census 1851 17526 matches
Census 1861 10329 matches
Census 1871 6128 matches
Census 1881 3709 matches
Census 1891 2765 matches
Census 1901 2408 matches
Census 1911 1952 matches

Now there's a name falling out of favour - I suppose the variant Christine sounded too English, but there has recently been a resurgence in the variant Kirsten.

ok. John Henderson Macdonald (McDonald) was my father, born 1889 in Tarbert, Loch Fyne, Scotland in 1889.
Father Robert, mother Jeannie (Jane,Jenny)
My father married his first wife, Florence Francis (Fanny) Walton in 1915.
At time he was with the second canadian contingent and went to fight in France. Why he was with them I dont know. I think he may have gone to live/work in Canada before the war. He stayed in France for 2 years after the war (unverified but from a newspaper article in 1933 mentioned)
What I am most interested in is when he divorced first wife. and what happened to her. She was born Preston, Lancs around 1888
Married my mother in 1940. Vera Marguerite Bell in Yorkshire.
My father was not born in Canada or the USA
In the 1950s, he tried to get a pension from the canadian government because of shrapnel injuries he received, but wasnt given anything.

I have become completely confused by this ...

Susan could you not answer what it is you know of him and what info you are looking for?

'Florence' is John's second wife and John was your father?

what is the info you have that he was in the Canadian forces in WWI although he was born in Scotland and died in England, if that is the correct info?


(alviegal
just a suggestion ... might you consider leaving the info about
Ontario, Canada Births, 1869-1913 about John Henderson McDonald
Name: John Henderson McDonald
Date of Birth: 22 Jul 1910
and then deleting all of the other info about that person since yes he is too young to be Susan's man :-D
it would make the thread easier to read ...)

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

Welcome to ScotlandsPeople
The official Scottish genealogy resource

Welcome to ScotlandsPeople, one of the largest online sources of original genealogical information. If you are researching UK genealogy, your Scottish ancestry or building your Scottish family tree, we have almost 90 million records to look through.

From Scottish census records, Scottish wills, birth certificates and death certificates, we have a comprehensive choice of Scottish records to bring your Scotland ancestry to life. Build the complete picture of your Scottish ancestry with ScotlandsPeople.

-------------------------
A Pay to view website where you can look for (and download within the parameters as previous post) bmd's etc. A lot can be gleaned for free by manipulating the questions you ask. The great advantage is that you can see the certificates in front of your eyes and they give more information than English ones.

Post official registration that began in 1855 for example you might find when parents married on a birth certificate, names of both parents including mothers maiden name on a marriage certificate, parents names on a death certificate etc. Pre 1855, you will get parish registers, again often have mmn on baptisms.

I was known as Macdonald, but there are so many variations on this.
I am still a novice at this and dont understand what SP is!
Also the children listed, Charles, Kenneth, William and Ronald , I dont think are correct. Ronald just happens to have a link to Atcham where Florence was married to my father.

This looks like Robert and Jane's marriage. So still no A. Looks like that's where the Henderson comes from.

1 credit to get a page of results - up to 24/5 on a page and then 5 credits will get you a look at the certificate and it can be downloaded. £7=30credits.
Certs. available to download are births over 100 years ago, marriages over 75 and deaths 50 years. Also see full census and the 1911 only available on SP

1880 MCDONALD ROBERT HENDERSON JANE LARGS (AYR) /AYR 602/00 0026

Back to with the A on the following census
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
St Fillanswell, Largs, Ayrshire, Scotland

Print household transcription Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Robert MacDonald Head Married Male 25 1856 Gamekeeper Fife, Scotland
Jeanie MacDonald Wife Married Female 31 1850 Gamekeeper Wife Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

A tree on ancestry has this for him.


John Henderson Macdonald
Birth 26 May 1889 in Sth: Knapdale, Argyll
Death 20 Aug 1966 in Sedgefield, Co Durham, England


Spouse and Children

Vera Marguerite Bell
1913 – 1972

Private

Stephen Wentworth Macdonald
1952 – 1998


Spouse and Children

Florence Frances Walton
1889 –

Charles C Macdonald

Kenneth Macdonald
1920 –

William A Macdonald
1924 –

Ronald Macdonald
1935 –

thank you for the last piece of information, that is indeed him.
Thank you to everyone who has replied, it was totally unexpected, as I am just seriously tackling this now. The name difference is interesting, Shall look at that as well.

Scotlands People shows this birth - you can get parent details from the site, but it is Pay to View. NOTE the spelling of the surname in both cases MCDONALD not Mac Donald.

1889 MCDONALD JOHN HENDERSON M TARBERT (ARGYLL) /ARGYLL 535/00 0022

So, possibly him on this 1891 census

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Cuiluashawraig, South Knapdale, Tarbert, Argyllshire, Scotland

Print household transcription Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Robert McDonald Head Married Male 36 1855 Game Keeper Sinclairtown, Fife, Scotland
Jane H McDonald Wife Married Female 40 1851 - Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
James P McDonald Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar Largs, Ayrshire, Scotland
Agnes M McDonald Daughter - Female 7 1884 - Largs, Ayrshire, Scotland
Isabella P McDonald Daughter - Female 4 1887 - Largs, Ayrshire, Scotland
John H McDonald Son - Male 1 1890 - Argyllshire, Scotland

He was my father, born in Scotland in 1889. He joined the second canadian contingent and fought in France in the first world war. I think he went to Canada before that and maybe that is the reason he joined them. He married Florence Francis (Fanny) Walton in 1915. I am trying to find out about that period in his life.

You can search via:
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/canadian-expeditionary-force.aspx

There are abt 1500 John MacDonalds in the CEF.
However, there is only 1 Henderson McDonald - maybe a relly?:
Name:MCDONALD, DAN HENDERSON
Regimental Number:645345
Date of Birth:24/12/1879
Reference: RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 6710 - 45
Item Number:145438

Currently, only his attestation papers are online:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gat4/136268a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gat4/136268b.gif
[s/o Mrs M McDonald, formerly of Ferry Rd Edinburgh, now (13/1/16?) 24 Willosson? Dr Annisland Glasgow]

LAC say:
The digitization of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces (CEF) files is underway and a substantial number will be available on our website by the end of the summer as part of the Government of Canada First World War commemoration initiative. Additional files will be available in the fall and winter months as the CEF digitization initiative is a priority for us.
[The first quarter was A-D, MacDonald is probably in the 3rd quarter, so probably available a year from now.]

NB you can search using d.o.b. at:
http://search.ancestry.ca/search/db.aspx?dbid=1086
I've found that although enlistees sometimes lied abt their age, they rarely lied abt their b'day.

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/search.aspx

as you can imagine there were many, many John Macdonalds in the Canadian Expeditionary Force

but there is no specific John Henderson Macdonald or Mcdonald

also no one by that name specifically among Canadian casualties

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial


as has been mentioned, it would be wise to say what you know of him and what you are trying to find out

Sorry it's obviously the wrong man I've posted as he would have been too young for WW1.

For ref from http://en.wikipedia.org

The formation of the 2nd Canadian Division began in May 1915 in Britain following the arrival of a large contingent of soldiers from Canada. The Division remained in Great Britain only a short time before embarking for France in September 1915. It joined the 1st Canadian Division to form the Canadian Corps. The division was under the command of Major-General R.E.W. Turner, and its members spent a long and bitterly cold winter in a Belgian section of the front between Ploegsteert Wood and Saint-Eloi, south of Ypres. Infantry units as well as artillery units of the 2nd Canadian Division served in both France and Flanders until Armistice Day.[citation needed]

Is this the man in question?


Ontario, Canada Births, 1869-1913 about John Henderson McDonald
Name: John Henderson McDonald
Date of Birth: 22 Jul 1910
Gender: Male
Birth County or District: Wellington
Father's Name: James Henderson McDonald
Mother's name: Elizabeth Robertson
Archive Name: Archives of Ontario
Archive Series: MS929
Archive Reel: 215