Genealogy Chat

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1364687?d=asc

(above as a reference for those Drapers/Parkers)

Chris :)

Thanks Chris

Hi
Thanks for your reply, the connection you gave me was a message I sent a couple of years ago, regarding another member of my family I was trying to trace. But not the one I am tracing now. I believe my grandmother came from a traveling family, they did move around a lot, all I know is that she seemed to be registered at birth as Eliza Parker, on the 17th April 1907 in Farningham Kent, but when she got married she was Elizabeth Draper, she married my grandfather Richard Feast n Milton Sittingbourne 1929. On the 1911 census I have her father as John Draper 1861 born Buck, her mother as Hester Draper 1871 born buck, a brother Abraham a brother Nelson and a brother John all born in different places. I would really like to find out more about them.

Sharon

:-D for Sadie
William Jones bc 1816 @ Cheshire..married..Esther Ann Price bc 1813 @ Cheshire (birth years taken from 1841 census)
Marriage details taken from..Wales and Cardigan parish registers 1538_1912,it gives the marriage date 16/6/1840 @ Llandygydd,Cardiganshire,the marriage bans having been announced at Llandygydd on the 31/5/1840
_______________________
1841 census they are at Helsby,Frodsham,Cheshire,where William is employed as a labourer,they have 3 children Henry b 1838..James b 1840 and William born 1841( which suggests that Henry was possibly born illegitimate)
________________________
1851,the family are still at Helsby,where the father is employed as a farm labourer,it seems that Henry born 1838 as now left the family .,William and Esther now have more children...Edward b1842....George b1845....Elizabeth b 1847....and another William b 1849( which has brought me to conclude that the William born 1841 as passed away)

Hi Elizabeth.

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm afraid this is for a different Jones family. I know my grandmother was born ~1905 and both she and my grandfather had 10kids and lived in mid Wales. But I can't find any history for my grandfather - not even there marriage Cert :-( my grandfather was of Romany gypsy heritage but not my grandmother.

I don't know a great deal about Romany gypsy heritage - did they always get married/ could there sometimes not be records?

Thanks for your help.

Sadie X

Sadie, I think this is your family- all living on the same encampment in 1939:

1939 register:

Household Encampment Brierly , Leominster M.B., Herefordshire, England

William Jones 20 Mar 1905 Male Casual Labourer Roads Qua Married
Esther (Ann) Jones (Price) 12 Nov 1905 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
3 Closed records
Gerald Jones 11 Jun 1934 Male At School Single
2 Closed Records

*Esther was added with the surname Price in 1939, but this was changed at a later date to Jones. There is no obivous marriage in the indexes- however, if Esther had been living with the surname Jones before they married, there is this possible marriage in 1943- Perhaps the initials are for Ann Price- you would need to order the certificate to know if it is correct:

Marriages Dec 1943
Jones Esther A P Jones Wrexham 11b 466
Jones William Jones Wrexham 11b 466

---------------------------------------------------

Encampment Brierly , Leominster M.B., Herefordshire, England

Llewelyn Jones 09 May 1874 Male Marine Store Dealer & Horse Dea Married 17 1
Mary Jones 10 Jun 1872 Female Hawker - Drapery Married
Sidney Jones 28 Feb 1915 Male Labourer In Stone Quarry Single
May (A) Jeffries (Jones) 03 Apr 1920 Female Domestic Servant - Daily Single
Eileen Cooper (Jones) 18 Mar 1923 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Single
---------------------------------------------

Household Encampment Brierly , Leominster M.B., Herefordshire, England

Thomas Warner 23 Dec 1884 Male Hawker (Travelling) Married
Emily Warner 13 Sep 1894 Female Hawker (Travelling) Married
Matilda Harris (Warner) 29 Nov 1917 Female Hawker (Travelling) Single
Closed Record
Bertha Jones (Warner) 19 Sep 1922 Female Not Previously Employed Single
Closed record
William H Warner 26 Jan 1927 Male At School Single
---------------------------------------------

And the birth for your Grandfather:

JONES, WILLIAM (Mother's maiden name: WARNER )
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in ATCHAM Volume 06A Page 657

Hi Austin,

That's the ones. That's amazing, thank you so much for your help.

Where did you get these details from - are there other public sources I can use to trace my family?

Many thanks,

Sadie

Sadie: The above is from the 1939 register on Find My Past.

I don't see the family in 1901/ 1911- and I suspect some of the childrens' births weren't registered. This is often the case that families can't be found on all the census due to travelling.

There are other people around researching the same families- it might be worth getting in touch with them to see what information they have. Googling brings up quite a few. There is a person on the link below that has all these as the children of Llewellyn Jones and Mary Warner:

Albert Jones b. not known
Esther Jones b. not known
Leonard Jones b. not known
Sidney Jones b. not known
Harriet Ann Jones 1901 – 1975
William Jones 1905 –
Byron Jones 1909 – 1979
Ila Martin Jones 1917 – 1986
Alma May Jones 1920 –
Eileen Mary Jones 1923 – 2002


http://www.gypsyjib.com/thread/3822703/Jones+of+Tredegar%2FSwansea%2F+Newtown%2F+and+Shropshire

Hi,
Gardners/Gardeners/ Dellaways/ Dillaways in Croydon Surrey 1880s- 1910 can you find anything for me?
I am particularly interested in my nan Alice Gardner B 1901 and her brother Noah Gardner b approx. 1894. Her mum Louisa married again into the Dellaway clan.
Are they Romanies? or general travellers ( they are recorded on Mitcham common about the time and Forster Road Croydon
Many thanks
Kevin

Hi Elizabeth
I did post once before but dont htink I got a reply- I can see you are very busy but could you look for me
My grandmother Alice Gardner was born in 1901 in Forster road croydon but some of her siblings were born around mitcham common and were all recorded as gypsies or hawkers.
I have a Noah Gardner born 1895 (ish) - their parents were george Gardners and Louise/A Hunt
George died but married into the Dullaway/Dellaway family
I have tried going beyond this generation but cannot find anything- can you help?
thank you Kevin

Elizabeth doesn't seem to have been around for a while.

Is this your family in 1911?

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
49 Dryden Road Croydon, Croydon, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
George Dellaway Head Married Male 37 1874 Croydon Surrey Dealer General
Lucy Dellaway Wife Married Female 38 1873 Stanner Heartfordshere -
Core Gardner Son Single Male 16 1895 Croydon Surrey Dealer Assisting Father
Florence Gardner Daughter Single Female 12 1899 Orpington Kent School
Alice Gardner Daughter Single Female 11 1900 Upper Wallinton Surrey School
Polly Dellaway Daughter Single Male 7 1904 Croydon Surrey School
Jane Dellaway Daughter Single Female 5 1906 Croydon Surrey School
Alfred Dellaway Son Single Male 3 1908 Croydon Surrey -
Sarria Dellaway Daughter Single Female 0 1911 Croydon Surrey

George and Lucy state they've been married for 8 years and have had 4 children born, all of whom are still alive.

-----------------------------
England & Wales marriages 1837-2005 Transcription

First name(s) LOUISA
Last name HUNT
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1907
MarriageFinder™ LOUISA HUNT married one of these people
George Dullaway, August Wilhelm Pfeiffer
District Croydon
County Surrey
Country England
Volume 2A
Page number 711

-------------------------------------------
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:

DULLAWAY, POLLY HUNT Order
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 291 Order

DELLAWAY, JANE HUNT Order
GRO Reference: 1906 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 346

DILLAWAY, ALFRED HUNT Order
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 317

DELLAWAY, SARAH HUNT Order
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 289

England & Wales marriages 1837-2005 Transcription

First name(s) GEORGE
Last name GARDNER
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1889
MarriageFinder™ GEORGE GARDNER married one of these people
Louisa Hunt, Lily Puttick
District Croydon
County Surrey
Country England
Volume 2A
Page number 400

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
GARDINER, NOAH HUNT Order
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 229 Order

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Gipsie's Tent, Chelsham, Godstone, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
George Gardner Head Married Male 37 1864 Croydon, Surrey, England Field Labourer
Louisa Gardner Wife Married Female 36 1865 Watford, Hertfordshire, England Field Labourer
Katherine L Gardner Daughter - Female 9 1892 Kent, England -
Noah Gardner Son - Male 6 1895 Croydon, Surrey, England -
Florence Gardner Daughter - Female 3 1898 Orpington, Surrey, England -

Hi Elizabeth, I am hoping you can shed some light onto my ancestors. The name "Lyons". William (1851-1909) and Bridget Lyons (1849 -?) (nee Neary)). They were travelers/hawkers/gypsies who from what I can gather were originally from Cardiff, but travelled all over Wales and England as hawkers. William died on Dec. 15, 1909 in Tredegar but have no idea where he is buried. I have looked everywhere (ancestry, find my past, welsh papers, etc.). The last known of Bridget was at her son-in-law, Isaac Arnold (a horse dealer) funeral in 1912. I know they were a family of travelling hawkers and some of William and Bridget's children were horse dealers as well. Do you have any information on the Lyons family? William was born in Suffolk, and Bridget in Bury, St. Edmunds. Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much. Ann

Welcome to the boards, Ann.

Elizabeth hasn't added anything to this thread in the last two years.
If you want to try to contact her directly, click on her name in green at the top of one of her posts, and send a private message. GR will notify her that there's a message for her, and then she may (or may not - no guarantees! ) be able to read and reply to it.

In the meantime, I'm sure the other helpers on the board will be looking for anything they can find, and will add any info here.

For our reference, is this the right family in 1901?


William Lyons
in the 1901 Wales Census
Name: William Lyons
Age in 1901: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse: Bridget Lyons
Gender: Male
Where born: Woodbridge, Suffolk, England
Civil Parish: Buckley
Town: Buckley
Ecclesiastical parish: Buckley St Matthew
County/Island: Flintshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Chester
Sub-registration district: Hawarden
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 295
Piece: 3378
Folio: 26
Page Number: 44
Household Members:
Name Age
William Lyons 50 - hawker, basket seller, etc
Bridget Lyons 52 - Bury St Edmunds
Alfred Lyons 22 - Shrewsbury
Mary A Lyons 20 - Worcester
George Lyons 18 - Wellington, Shropshire
Kate Lyons 17 - Chester


And the son Alfred in 1911:

Alfred Lyons
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: Alfred Lyons
Age in 1911: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Pontypridd
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: In A Field, Bridge Street, Trallion, Pontypridd
Marital status: Married,
Years Married: 9
Estimated Marriage Year: 1902
Occupation: Licensed Hawker
Registration district: Pontypridd
Registration District Number: 589
Sub-registration district: Eglwysilan
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 152
Piece: 32220
Household Members:
Name Age
Alfred Lyons 32 - Shrewsbury, licensed hawker
Mary Lyons 28
Alfred Lyons 8
Peter Lyons 7
Annie Lyons 5
Kate Lyons 3


The surname is variously spelled Lynes and Lines

EDIT:

NO, IGNORE THIS marriage below. I forgot William only died in 1909.



Just a possibility, there's this marriage;

Marriages Dec 1907 (>99%)
LYONS Bridget Merthyr T. 11a 1376
TYLER Edith Maud Merthyr T. 11a 1376
VAUGHAN William Joseph Merthyr T. 11a 1376

Unfortunately, it's no help!

William Joseph and Edith Maud are together in 1911, and this record doesn't show the other bridegroom's name.



In the 1911 census, I don't see a Bridget born c 1849 in Bury St Edmunds. (So far, at least).
In 1891 her name is spelled Brigit.

William and Bridget's daughter Lydia in 1911, in another field - so Bridget's not with her either:

Lydia Arnold
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Lydia Arnold
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Wem Urban
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street address: Caravan In Talbot Yard, Wem
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 18
Estimated Marriage Year: 1893
Registration district: Wem
Registration District Number: 352
Sub-registration district: Wem
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 165
Piece: 16198
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Arnold 41
Lydia Arnold 37
Isaac Arnold 14
Rose Arnold 11
Emma Arnold 9
William Arnold 6

Lydia died in Birmingham in 1914. Probate to Jeremiah Lyons, horse dealer.


Unfortunately, as Bridget was a traveller/hawker, she could have married or died anywhere, and it's not an uncommon name

1891 says Bridget was born in Bradford - which only muddies the waters even more. Her birth year also varies quite a bit:

Bridget Lyons
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Bridget Lyons
Gender: Female
Age: 46
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1845
Spouse: William Lyons
Child: Lydia Lyons
Frederick Lyons
Alfred Lyons
Mary A Lyons
George Lyons
Katherine Lyons
Birth Place: Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Oswestry
Residence Place: Oswestry, Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Sub registration district: Oswestry
ED, Institution or Vessel: 18
Neighbors:
Piece: 2117
Folio: 117
Household Members:
Name Age
William Lyons 44 - horse dealer
Bridget Lyons 46
Lydia Lyons 18
Frederick Lyons 17
Alfred Lyons 13
Mary A Lyons 10
George Lyons 8
Katherine Lyons 6


But 1881 and 1901 both say born Bury St Edmunds, and that's where she was married

Hello Liz

I am looking for information regarding members of my family,

Samuel Harris my 2xgdad 1816 /1845 his wife Mary Ann Gritt 2xgmother 1819/1892

Plus her mother Esther White my 3xgmother 1780/1834.
Would be very grateful for any information about them. I believe they were all from around the Hampshire area. Many thanks Judith

:-) :-)