Genealogy Chat

This odd naming pattern can still happen today

George Forman has named ALL his children George, including his daughters!

Burial Register summary
last name GREEN first names HELENA BEATRICE KERBY Burial date 13 Oct 1884
Location Brompton Cemetery (Kensington and Chelsea)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(if any use)

Chris :)

Baptism (Find My Past)
First names:Helena Beatrice Kerby
Surname:Gould
Baptism year:1865
Baptism month:Oct
Baptism day:12
Parish:St George, Hanover Square
County:Middlesex
Page:245
Birth year:1863
Birth month:Jul
Birth day:13
Father's First names:Joseph (Fruiterer)
Mother's First names:Sarah Jane
Data provider:Westminster Archives
(abode, Shepherds Market)

(also same time, Alice Evelyn Kerby, Born 30 May 1865)

I think that might have been a coincidence, as the correct Fred R father name was William, a pawnbroker:

Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921
Name: Frederick Ralph Green - Coachman
Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 22
Marriage Date: 10 Nov 1885
Parish: Liverpool, St Thomas
Spouse's Name: Isabella Crampton
Father's Name: Elias Green - Gardener
Spouse Father's Name: Henry Crampton - Gardener
Reference Number: 283 THO/3/8

Worth bearing in mind though to eliminate when looking at other possible records.

Did he actually marry 4 times?

Marriages Dec 1885
Crampton Isabella Liverpool 8b 263
Green Frederick Ralph Liverpool 8b 263

Rose

Pippa, was the child actually born in October 1884, or was that the commencement of the quarter in which the birth was registered?

Thanks BatMans Daughter. I don't think this is right. The area fits, but as he was born in Oct 1884 that makes him 9 months old in July 1885, not 14 months.

Thanks anyway.

Pippa

This must be the registration,


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Sep 1885 (>99%)

GREEN Frederick 1 Shoreditch 1c 93

I cant see this death registered yet,

Name: Frederick Green
Record Type: Death
Estimated Death Date: 1885
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Register

Died of "intestine disease"
Aged 14 months.
Died 31.07.1885 at 4am.

I guess this announcement would relate to the birth of Gertrude May?

Publication:Liverpool Mercury
Publication date:Saturday 11 May 1878

From the Births section:

GREEN May 10, at 111, Kensington, the wife of Frederick Ralph Green, of a daughter.

Thanks Marie. Yes we have all 3 marriage certs (1. Martha Wright Munro, in Liverpool, 2. Helena Beatrice Kerby Gould, Middx, 3. my ggrandma Eliza Machell Blogg, Fulham) and birth certs. Also have Helena's death certificate which states that she died from epileptic convulsions during childbirth. So, just trying to establish if the child FJG died at birth or soon after.

Thanks Shirley, have both birth certs. Same father, different wives.

Cheers

Pippa

On the birth certificate for the Frederick John born 1884, what does it give for Helena Beatrice's maiden name? I suspect this might be her:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Helena Beatrice Kerby Gould
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1863
Registration District: St George Hanover Square
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 228

- the full range of names and the birth year match the 1884 death.

Might be worth checking if he was with any of her family in later census?

And the marriage of that couple:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Frederick Ralph Green - Draper
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 29
Spouse Name: Eliza Machell Blogg
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Apr 1886
Parish: Walham Green St John
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Father Name: William Green (deceased) - Pawnbroker
Spouse Father: John Blogg - Engineer.
Register Type: Parish Register

Fred a widower of 72 mildmay Road, St Pauls, Canonbury.

Eliza a spinster of 4 Peterborough Road, Fulham.

Witnesses: J Chesterfield and M A Forsdick.

Pippa, you probably already have this, but I'm trying to get the family straight in my head. Is this the correct family in 1891?

GREEN, Fred R Head Married M 35 1856 Draper Assistant Liverpool, Lancashire
GREEN, Eliza M Wife Married F 27 1864 Fulham, Middlesex
GREEN, Fred F Son M 4 1887 Hornsey, Middlesex
GREEN, Catherine M Daughter F 2 1889 Norwood, Surrey

Piece: 594 Folio: 37 Page: 67
Registration District: Croydon
Civil Parish: Croydon Municipal Borough: Croydon
Address: 87, Clifton Road, Croydon County: Surrey

Young Fred's middle initial definitely looks like J on the image.

My grandfather was called William Patrick, one of his brothers was Kieran William. Both were known as Billy in later life - they've been fun to research.

Have you actually got both certs to see if they are the same family ?

That is surprising Shirley. Thanks for sharing that info. Pippa

Well ! I was confused when looking at part of my tree to see two boys with exactly the same Christian name on the 1881 census .one aged 4 and the other aged 2 thought it was an error so ignored it at fiirst Subsequent census coming online I discovered it was correct .they named one James Joseph and the other James Herbert and on a daily basis each was known by their second name. Both survived too into adults and married etc.

It may just be they did use the same name twice .

Have now looked and cannot see any death record for Frederick John Green, born Hackney 1884. Not sure where that leaves us.

There was also a Gertrude Green born in the same quarter. FJG's father already had a daughter Gertrude May in Liverpool, whom he had left along with his first wife, but who survived childhood. Out of interest, does anyone think it is possible he gave the same name to a second child, especially if that child died at birth or soon after (no death record for that child either that I can find).

Cheers

Pippa

Thank you all for your replies. I thought it wouldn't be possible that they would give the same name to two consecutive children so this is very helpful.

I will now, as you suggest, look into the possible death of the 'first' Frederick John Green born Hackney 1884 to Helena Beatrice Green (who died of epileptic fits and convulsions from that childbirth), and Frederick Ralph Green, who was in Liverpool until 1882 (but left there and his first wife Martha Munro Green for reasons unknown; they lost a two year old son in 1882 to meningitis). Great uncle FJG left for Australia decades later.

Really appreciate you all sharing your experiences.

Cheers

Pippa

This is also on facebook with the same replies

My gt gt grandparents had three children they named Edward