Genealogy Chat

My G Grandfather didn't have a birth certificate but his daughter recalls that when he claimed his state pension in the early 1930's he had to prove his age? She thinks his old school teacher was able to confirm his age but the family have no records at all. Would there be a record of his old age pension on file somewhere that could confirm this?

What pension would he have claimed in the 1930,s.

Have you found his death cert.?

State OAP comes under the Department for Work and Pension (DWP). I can't find any link for Historical records, although you could see if any one can help from contact details on the folowing link

https://www.gov.uk/contact-pension-service

It's highly unlikely that they would be able to retrieve his file even if they still had it. It may even be covered by the 100 year rule.

If your G Grandfather was born before 1878, there was no penalty for *not* registering his birth. Many people relied on a baptism certificate for proof of age. If he ever had one, he could well have lost it.

Welcome to the boards Claire.

Just to clarify - are you trying to find out birth details or just some info re. his proof of age to inland revenue?

I'm not sure such records exist, or even if they did I would be inclined to think they would be confidential. Have you tried contacting HMRC? However, having done a google search this might be of interest - it concerns the data protection act:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/dp-fs1.htm

Found this also, no idea if of any use:

http://www.pensionsarchive.org/74/

Jan

Claire

Why dont you post his details that you know on this thread ...you never know .

There are some very good researchers on here that may just come up with what you are looking for ;-).

Suex

When the Old Age Pensions Act 1908 came into effect, it gave 5/- p.w. to those whose incomes were less than 12/- p.w. and who were over 70y of age. Since b.certs were only in effect from 1837 on in England/Wales, 1855 in Scotland and 1864 in Ireland, almost no one had a b.cert in the beginning. Baptismal certs were taken as proofs of age and, since many people didn't get baptized, the Registrar General gave a wide latitude to searches by ministery staff in the censuses to establish age.

In a related instance, Nova Scotia almost went bankrupt in the 1870s, so one of their economies was to suspend the registration of births and deaths, only resuming that in 1908. Older NS b.certs are online, and many of them are late registrations. They allowed supporting documentation like letters from school-teachers and others who knew the subject as a child, affidavits by siblings, entries in family bibles, etc.

Thanks for all the helpful advice and links. My G Grandfather was George Murray, married to Alice Taylor in 1914 when he was 43 so I have established from this he was born about 1873 but he fell out with his family years before he met Alice and never spoke about them so no-one knows where he was born and if he had siblings? On his marriage certificate his father is noted as George Murray also who was a retired Tailor and my G Grandfather was a very good tailor so he may have learnt it as a teenager. We believe he had a sister who died of TB and he was sent to Africa to recuperate from the same. While he was out there he fought in Boer War but again no idea who with. The only other info I have is that when my Grandmother was born in 1917 he was in the Royal Flying Corps. If anyone can advise where I can look next it would be greatly appreciated I would love to fill the gaps for my Grandmother who has just turned 96 :-)

For location! Do you have his address from the cert, and witness names also please?

Marriages Dec 1914
Murray George Taylor Fulham 1a 840
Taylor Alice R Murray Fulham 1a 840

Jan

Yes, his address was 13, Mall Road, Hammersmith and witnesses were E Perry and F Sears his father is noted as retired whereas Alice's is deceased so assuming he knew his father was still alive but not present at marriage. Thx

If he was 43 in 1914 he was born circa 1870/1 not 1873

Had he been married before?
Thanks

Well, he wasn't there 1911! What was his occupation when he married?
Jan

Sorry Shirley, he was 41 when he got married typed it in wrong :-(

We don't know if he was married before, my Aunt would be delighted if he was cos she thinks he was very secretive. We know nothing definite about his life until he got married and even then they only got married cos Alice was 3 months pregnant!!!!

He was a commercial clerk?

Bit of a mystery man! There are one or two George Murray's who are clerks 1911, and 2 commercial clerks, but nobody fits all that well.
Just checking - I assume he was English as far as you know?
Jan

Claire sorry wasnt meant as a correction thought it may help in the look ups :-)

So he wasnt a tailor when he married ?/ was looking for him as tailor

No luck whatsoever. What about a different approach? Have you located Alice in 1911? It's possible (maybe!) that he was living not too far away, who knows.
What was her middle name and when was she born?

EDIT she was Alice Rayner, is that right?

Jan

Can only find the Banns, which do describe him as a bachelor:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: George Murray
Spouse Name: Alice Rayner Taylor
Record Type: Banns
Event Date: 18 Oct 1914
Parish: Acton St Mary
Borough: Ealing
Register Type: Parish Register

I know it's not finding George's birth but thought I'd post it seeing as I found it:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: Alice Raynor Murray
Probate Date: 18 Mar 1959
Death Date: 2 Feb 1959
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England

A widow of 5 Whitehall Gardens, Acton. Admin to Joan Alice Sangler, married woman. Effects £398 1s 8d

??
Alice Rayner Taylor
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1884
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 575

?
Alice R Murray
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1959
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Ealing
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5e
Page: 152