Genealogy Chat

No father's name on cert indicates illegitimacy

Only one birth on freebmd for Emily Woods with MMN Woods

Of course, she could have been born anywhere in the world............

Did she have an occupation when she married?

And what was her address?

Thanks Jan - the information is she may have married bigamoulsy which is why i think there may be a link to the mmn being Cameron, also, this may be why the "P" has been put in there and is not on the original marriage certificate?

Reggie - I only have the MMN as Cameron for the Stepney births and the father as Silvana Gauci (similar name to the co-respondent on the divorce cert)- i'm only going on information i have that she had 8 more children (6 that I found) and i know my grandfather was in Stepney when he said he knew where she lived.

I will post the names of the witnesses, her occupation and address etc later as i dont have the certificate with me at present.

Thanks for you help folks.

Hi,

The witness names are M Doyle and W Gay.

The address for Emily Woods is 41 St Marys Road Willesden NW10 and her occupation was general stores shop assistant.

My Grandfathers address was 43 Connaught Road Willesden NW10 if that helps?

Update

I now have the marriage cert for Salvino Gauci and Emily Patricia Cameron. They were married on 14/7/43 and she was 24 years old which fits with Emily Woods being 21 years old on 13/4/40.

However, Emily Patricia Cameron has a fathers name as Patrick Cameron who was deceased at the time of her marriage in 1943 so it looks like Emily Woods is a different person.

I tried to find a birth for Emily P Cameron or a death for Patrick Cameron but can't find any.

I'm not sure where to go next in search for Emily Woods, any help would be greatly appreciated.

I think that marriage might have been the red herring I suspected - but worth a shot.
I am guessing Hugh's father wasn't called Patrick! And that the witnesses & address for the Emily Cameron marriage don't have any connections? Just to be 100% sure.
Jan

Hi Jan,

No, Hugh's father was Andrew. the witnesses are different and the addresses also dont match. However, i'm not convinced there is no connection as the co-respondent on the divorce certificate was so similar to Silvano Gauci.

The address on the Emily Cameron marriage is in Stepney and this is where my Grandfather lived when he told my Dad that he knew where his mother was. Just seems like a lot of coincidences and in the absence of another marriage for Emily Woods and the bigamy story i wonder......

Silvano Gauci is listed as a merchant seaman on the marriage certificate so perhpas Emily Patricia Cameron was not even born in the UK which might explaing the lack of birth certificate or death certificate for Patrick?

Hi Marion.

I feel in a bit of a dilemma here as it is me who suggested that marriage and I am worried about sending you on a wild goose chase. It's tricky isn't it - hard to discount completely just in case. And so far we have nothing else to go on.

Do you live in or near London? I would be tempted to check out the addresses given by Emily Woods and Emily Cameron on the electoral register and see who else might be living there. You can only look either side of the war though remember.

How do the addresses you have relate to each other geographically? I sometimes use google map to provide a bit of evidence when tracking people down.

Who were the witnesses on the Gauci marriage cert? If there is a Cameron then my feeling is that would confirm 100% that there is no connection with your family, as if she was using a bogus name she would be the only Cameron on that cert!
Do you have an occupation for Emily on the first cert?

Jan

Hi Jan,

The occupation on the 1st cert is general stores shop assistant.
There are 3 witnesses on the Gauci cert, none of them Cameron. the names are CH Friggieri, P Friggieri and W MacDougall. On the 2nd cert they both had the same address at the time of marriage, 5 Swedenborg Street, Stepney.

The address for Emily Woods on the 1st cert is 41 St Marys Road Willesden NW 10.

I actually live in Scotland, is there any other way to see the electoral register other than in person?

Thanks for you help Jan

Hi Marion.

Not sure if I'm being a help or a hindrance!

It occurred to me I should have asked the most obvious thing - der! - have you compared signatures for the two Emily's?

Regarding electoral registers - there are London ones on Ancestry. For example when searching specifying Gauci and Swedenborg Street, Stepney an Emily Gauci shows for 1948 but I can't see details as I do not have high enough membership.
Likewise two Woods show for St Marys Road Willesden 1936/7 though not an Emily.. EDIT another grey moment - she wasn't old enough to vote then was she!!

If you think the signatures might be the same person, as I started all this, I shall put out a separate plea for someone to have a look at the electoral register and guide them here.

Jan

Hi Jan,

It's difficult to say if the signatures are the same as I think the writing on both certs looks like the registrar completed it all, i.e. the signatures look the same as the rest of the hand writing!

The "E" on both signatures is similar, if you have anyone who can help by searching the electoral register that would be great?

Thanks

Marion

Done! I have checked out the couple who show up but they cannot be Emily's parents, not least of all because she was unaware who her father was. And they married 1912.
If they are at exactly the same address they might be related though.
Let's see what happens, I am sure someone will be kind enough to check.
Jan

Shirley has kindly done a lookup - not the same address sadly but frustratingly close!. I am starting to have a crisis here and they aren't even my family!!

'Name: Francis Lucy Woods
Year: 1935
County or Borough: Willesden
Ward or Division/Constituency: Willesden East

28 St Marys Road with a William Edward Woodss

still there in 1936/7


Name: Francis Lucy Woods
Year: 1938
County or Borough: Willesden
Ward or Division/Constituency: West Division
Street Address: 28 Nursery Cottage
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/0670


wrong address transcribed its still 28 St Marys Road and with Mr William Edward Woods and MR William Edward Woods jun'

Hi, I have been following this thread with interest. Wondering if anyone has followed up the Friggieri connection - there are not many of them - but I cannot see much of a connection except a death (not in Stepney) of a Paul JP Friggieri.

Just thinking - unusual name, might lead somewhere

Well, through a bit of guesswork I might have figured out who P. and CH Friggieri are!

I think this couple are on the electoral register for Stepney 1945:

Marriages Dec 1940 (>99%)
Friggieri Publis Hazid Cardiff 11a 1131
Hazid Charlotte H Friggieri Cardiff 11a 1131

But the more I look at it the more doubtful I feel to be honest.

Marion, forgive me if you have already posted this, but do you know where your grandfather was living when he 'knew where Emily was'?

Jan

Hi Marion,

We can't have Jan in a dilemma on her own so I thought I'd join in!

I think it would be an amazing coincidence if the Samuel mentioned on the Divorce isn't the same man, he is listed in 1945 with Emily P.

It partly depends on how much you are willing to spend on this, what about applying for your Grandad's WW2 records, if he divorced in 1947 his file might contain some information about his next of kin?

Kind regards
Amanda

Just been checking on Google, the surnames Figgieri and Gauci seem to be connected to Malta.

I know that the search is for Emily Woods but if there is a family connection between Gauci and Figgieri, and someone is tracing their ancestry then there might be a way of getting back to Emily that way - all bits in a puzzle, which might eliminate Emily P completely or make a stronger connection.

Just a question - under what circumstances might there be 3 witnesses to a marriage? 2 from his side - 1 from hers perhaps? Does W MacDougall connect to an Emily somewhere?

Janet

Thanks to you folks for coming to my rescue! I have been trying not to lose sight of Emily Woods amidst all this speculation.
Amanda, I have replied to your message. Thanks for sending image of 1945 census, but for the life of me I cannot see the couple you mention!
You say 'I think it would be an amazing coincidence if the Samuel mentioned on the Divorce isn't the same man' - but not sure why?
Jan

Amanda- went through that image carefully street by street and found them!

For anybody else, in 1945 there are a Samuel Gauci, Emily P. Gauci and Joseph Gauci living at 3 Ludens place Stepney. On the same page is Swedenborg Square (formerly Princes Square), presumably in similar location to Swedenborg St.

Thanks very much Amanda, what a brilliant find! So he was using Samuel as a first name, how interesting is that.

What does everyone else think - mainly Marion obviously!

jan

I am just thinking here, trying to tie things together or pull them apart.

Emily Woods married in April 1940 in Willesden to Hugh Cameron - who was from Glasgow - how old was he when they married? What was he doing in Willesden/London - on leave? In October 1940 your father was born (sorry - bit quick)....so maybe Emily lied about:

1) her age - was she really 21? If not, maybe she felt she needed NOT to have a father shown on her marriage certificate - because wouldn't she have needed permission to marry if she was under (or just a couple of months under) 21? Or potentially to be left on her own - unmarried with a child and

2) If under 21 and not being truthful - gave no father's name rather than give a truthful answer and perhaps be caught out

Marion you also said that Emily left your father in 1941 and "he was brought to Scotland to be raised by his grandmother" - was it that she left her husband and son - or just her son, your father - if so do you know who brought him to Scotland? Just thinking - if she was young, under 21, pregnant, married, left with a small baby on her own,perhaps she decided that she wanted to start again. Or alternatively October 1940 to June 1941 was the Blitz - maybe she took her son to Scotland?

In 1943, Emily P marries Samuel (Salvatino) Gauci - giving her age as 24, which is feasible and her father as deceased - which he could have been by then, even as a war casualty. Using Cameron as she was probably known by that name and just giving his first name Patrick.

I think I am convinced that Emily Woods who married Hugh Cameron is the same as Emily P Cameron who married Gauci!

Thanks for the summary JannieAnnie - just what was needed!

The only thing I might add - if for now we go with the theory that these 2 Emily's are the same woman - is that i would be more inclined to assume her age is correct in both instances (they match perfectly), that she was illegitimate, and that Patrick Cameron is made up to support the name she is using as being her maiden name.

Re. the Faggieri witnesses, there are a lot of Gauci's in Cariff too. I would be quite interested to know more about Silvano/Samuel from the marriage cert.

Mind you, whatever happens, we are no closer to finding out where Emily was born are we!

I wonder if there are any newspaper reports re. the bigamy issue?

Jan