Genealogy Chat

Has anyone found Emily in 1891?

Added:
OK, found her, still claiming birth 1873/1872.
I am suspicious of the later birth posted.

£1.40 for a cert in Scotland? If only Wales had its own government too. :-(

Oh, we do :-D Add that to free presciptions and low University fees. Might even catch up with Scotland one day ;-)

John - Re: So my £1.25 is not enough now.

Well, not for England/Wales, but £1.40 would get you an older Scottish cert, except it wouldn't be "certified", just a scanned copy of the original local register - you'ld have to buy enough credits to get 5 scans, but they can be parish register pages, census pages, or civil rego pages.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&409

mgnv

never seen your name before, but that was a fantastic find.

Did look at that Emily Esther POCKETT and though it might be Emily Ada. So looks like she was legit, Lizzie :-D

I have nver seen Esther change to Ada. But Ada would have been miore fashionable in 1881, I think.

So my £1.25 is not enough now. Just for a photocopy and a signature.

As the England & Wales ceased using sums like 25/- in 1971, one might reasonably assume the price has increased since John last bought a cert.
The cost is now 9 quid, and you can order online - see:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Getting back to your original question.
The GRO index gives spouses' surnames from 1912q1, and the mum's maiden surname from 1911q3, so the real problem is earlier dates.
You can search the GRO index at http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
This is the best search engine for marrs, but they've only transcribed marrs completely thru the 1940s.
You can also search BMDs on Ancestry for free thru 1915 (actually, you can search anything for free there, but for most things, you won't see much detail without a sub).

You can sometimes get info in other ways. E.g., William Jr is my wife's g grandad below:
1851 England Census
Civil parish: Parton
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street Address: Parton
Registration district: Whitehaven
Sub-registration district: Harrington
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 78

William Benson 31 Parton, Cumberland, England Head M Coal Miner
Isabella Benson 30 Whitehaven, Cumberland, England Wife M
George Benson 10 Whitehaven, Cumberland, England Son
William Benson 5 Cochoe [Coxhoe], Durham, England Son
Isabella Benson 2 Parton, Cumberland, England Daughter

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2436; Folio: 213; Page: 19; GSU roll: 87117.


1861 England Census
Civil parish: Urpeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Pelton
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: Urpeth High Pit
Registration district: Chester Le Street
Sub-registration district: Chester le Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 207

William Benson 41 Parton, Cumberland, England Head M Coal Miner
Elizabeth Benson 29 Parton, Cumberland, England Wife M
William Benson 15 Coxhoe, Durham, England Son U Coal Miner
Isabella Benson 13 Parton, Cumberland, England Daughter U
John Benson 11 Parton, Cumberland, England Son
Joseph Benson 1 Chilton, Durham, England Son
Benjamin Cliff 14 Maryport, Cumberland, England Nephew U Coal Miner
George Benson 20 Whitehaven, Cumberland, England Son U Coal Miner
Samuel Richardson 21 Milton Bridge, Yorkshire, England Boarder U Coal Miner

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3760; Folio: 51; Page: 42; GSU roll: 543183.


Using https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
England, Diocese of Durham Bishops' Transcripts ca., 1700-1900
DUR BTs - Kelloe (St Helen's - image 509 of 723)
BAPTISMS Solemnized in the Parish of Kelloe
in the County of Durham in the Year 1845
November 16 [Entry] No 949; William; 2nd Son of William Benson & Isabella (late Douglas); Coxhoe Long Row; Pitman; W Skene Curate.

So now we know Wm Snr's 1st wife from the church records, and we can infer (correctly) that Eliz Cliff was his 2nd wife from the census.


However, the most useful dataset is often the local index.
As John said, you can buy BMD certs from the GRO or the local rego office, and some local offices have an online index - see http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
The one of interest for us is http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
POCKETT William ALIDER Elizabeth Gloucester Gloucester St Mark 1873 31 No 3 458

Since this local index includes the entry # in the ref, we know the names on that entry, rather than just the names on that page.
[I can see how a curlicued H in Hilder could easily be transcribed as Al - I've asked Gloucester to check their transcription]


I think this is Emily Ada:
Using http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Births Mar 1874 (>99%)
Pockett Emily Esther Gloucester 6a 287

Under English common law, all that's necessary for a legal change of name is that one stop using the old name and start using the new name, and there be no fraudulent intent. Of course, since her initial's A by 1881 and Emily's still a minor, it would be up to her parents, not her.

Using http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/ again:
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
POCKETT Emily Esther POCKETT POCKETT HIDER 1874 Gloucester Gloucester, St Nicholas 20 311

Thank you for all the help and time you've put in everyone..

Much appreciated!

Such a lot to take in, but I will try to get the certificate.

Spooky thing is I called my own daughter Sarah Elizabeth, a twist on the fact that her own great great great grandmothers name was Elizabeth Sarah!

Lizzie x :-0

Am considering possibility she was Elizabeth HIDER and that was her married name when she married William POCKETTS. So possible Emily Ada POCKETTS was adopted into family after the marriage in 1873 as a baby or toddler.

But I think we must now be patient, and see what the first certificate throws up.

"Siblings" were all born Glyntaff (Pontypridd Reg District):

Elizabeth Jane POCKETT Mar 76 Q 11a 373
Alice Ann Mar 79 11a 345
Richard William Dec 80 11a 306
Mabel Dec 82 11a 350 - died Sept 83 11a 187 aged 0
Thomas James Mar 85 Q 11a 386
Catherine Mary Mar 1887 Q 11a 374 - died June 1889 11a 221 aged 2

So that looks like (including Emily Ada) 7 confinements and 2 deaths. Yet in C1911, Elizabeth Sarah (mother) states she has been married 41 years and has had 8 confinements (3 of whom have died). So one more child death to find probably.

What I was suggesting is that, once you have the 1895 marriage cert of Emily Ada, it might be a good idea to get the birth cert of one of above to see details of mother's maiden name.

That and marriage cert may just help us to find this birth of Emily Ada (which should be about 1871-1874 ( in Gloucester)

Thanks Roy. Is it still 25/- from Southport GRO on line? :-(

You can buy certs online through the GRO you will need to register first

using the info from the index is the best way unless it is a complicated situation

to order using the info on the index tick the box that asks if the GRO reference is known, and just enter that info


http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

only ever buy certs from the GRO or the local records office where the event took place

all other sources will charge a premium

Roy

Stumped me there, Lizzie :-S

Think there are two main ways. One to go to Pontypridd records office and pick up cert if you are local.

But you can order it on line. Was about 25/- last time I ordered a certificate but may be more now. Hope someone can tell you properly with chapter and verse. Useful for me as I have to spend my 25 shillings on one soon to break down a brick wall.

Details are:

Marriage Pontypridd Registration District
First Quarter 1895
Folio No: 11a
Page Number 514
Groom: Benjamin Joseph WICKS
Bride: Emily Ada POCKETTS

When you get cert, that should give you (us if you want us to keep helping) a lot more info. Church or registry office, religion, addresses, fathers, occupations, witnesses, Banns or License, officiating officer.

Certificates are useful if you want the WICKS to be granted a Coat of Arms by the Collge of Arms. But otherwise I avoid them unless absolutely essential. Fortunately a lot disagree with me and keep them in their records like stamps in a stamp album. And I take a sneaky and free look at them ;-)

Thanks for your input John!

Can you tell me the procedure to obtain the certificate?

Lizzie xx

It is all conjecture till you get the certs, Lizzie.

But this marriage in third quarter (July to September) of 1873 of William POCKETTS to Elizabeth HIDER in Gloucester R D looks right to me.

But I think Emily Ada POCKETTS may have been born just before that marriage date, not more thgan 2 years and possibly only a few months.

Have eliminated 2 of my theories. One was that a professional woman (a teacher) could be the lady - Elizabeth Sarah APPLEGATE. But she was still single and teaching in C1901, so apologies to the late Elizabeth. Two was that she was Elizabeth HIDER, 5 months and daughter of gradener Thomas HIDER in Southwark in C1851. But she was a couple of years older than William POCKETTS , and that Elizabeth HIDER finished up quite early in life in Oz and married a ROMEO!!!!

Don't worry, Lizzie, if you are confused, I am too. I think this will prove very difficult to unravel.

But first base, I think, is to buy that marriage certificate of Emily Ada POCKETTS and get some hard facts that wiil help. Unless someone can see something I have missed

Ok, I am confused...

Is it all pointing to Emily Ada being illigitimate, then her parents marry later?

I wonder if her mother was sent away to have her in Gloucester in shame? Her siblings were born back in Glyntaff..

What a can of worms we open once we start looking eh.

Thanks for all the help guys! Its amazing how things pan out..

In C1911, she is recorded as Elizabeth Sarah. I did spot am Elizabeth Sarah of right age and right place of birth on C1871 in Gloucester. But she was a professional woman and a teacher.

It had crossed my mine that she had Emily Ada soon after C1871 and that HIDER was not her surname. But was getting in very deep water.

I suppose the only way to unravel this one, and I hate suggesting certificates is to get hold of:
1. Marriage cert of Emily Ada POCKETTS to Benjamin Joseph WICKS (1895, I think)
2. Birth certificate of one of her C1881 siblings. Birth of Richard William POCKETTS in about November 1880 Glyntaff should be easy to find THat should give maiden name of hos mother (which should be HIDER but I am doubtful),
3. Then armed with actual maiden name of mother, there is a chance to locate birth of Emily Ada POCKETTS/HIDER/???

Also, it should be very easy to locate family of Elizabeth Sarah POCKETTS nee HIDER or ??? born about 1849 London because of huge number of London records available to us.

William POCKETTS records his birth as Neath all the time. But I think his admission of Gower in C1911 leads us to where her was born:

C1851 Fairwood Lodge, Pennard
Richard POCKETT, 34, hay dealer, B Glos
Ann, wife, 37, b Glos
Elizabeth, dau, 5, b Pennard
Jane, 4, b Pennard
WILLIAM, 5m, b Pennard

Note in "Glamorganshire (1911)" - PENNARD A parish in Gower on the east side of Oxwich bay. Overlooking a sandy creek are the ruins of a castle, and the face of the cliffs are perforated with bone caverns. The neighbouring village of Parkmill is much visited for its picturesqueness

Picking out part of John's reply to talk you through the process - bear in mind that without Emily Ada's BC in your hand, it is conjecture.

"Only marriage I can find is William POCKETTS to Elizabeth HIDER in Sept 1873 Gloucester Reg Dist. "

Go to http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ and 'Search' on the home page.

Select Marriages from the Type box.
Surname Pocketts
First name William

1911 census says married 41 years. Sometimes they forgot, or deliberately lied. On that basis (bearing in mind John's findings) put in date range 1870-1875.

Since the children were born Gloucester, that it a likely place to have married, but for the purpose of this exercise, lets assume All counties/All districts. No need to select anything in those boxes as it is the 'default' setting.

3 results

Marriages Sep 1873 (>99%)
Pockett William Gloucester 6a 531
Marriages Mar 1875 (>99%)
Pockett William Hard Pancras 1b 137
Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
POCKETT William Cheltenham 6a 917

The last number on each line are page numbers and are underlined in blue. In turn, click on the page number. The result is the names of ever one listed on that page.

(You can return to the results page by using the 'back' button on your mouse/computer)

eg
Marriages Sep 1873 (>99%)
BEARCROFT Caroline Gloucester 6a 531
BUNDY Susan Elizabeth Gloucester 6a 531
HANCOCK William Gloucester 6a 531
Hider Elizabeth Gloucester 6a 531
Pockett William Gloucester 6a 531
Taylor Edwin Gloucester 6a 531

There should always be an even number of entries (unless one has been double transcribed).

We believe that William m an Elizabeth. There is only one Elizabeth on the page, hence the probability of Elizabeth Hilder.

Co-incidentaly, one of the other William Pockett marriages also has an Elizabeth listed.
Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
INSALL Mary Jenkins Cheltenham 6a 917
JONES Edward Cheltenham 6a 917
POCKETT William Cheltenham 6a 917
Taylor Elizabeth Ann Cheltenham 6a 917

I recognise your face from your photo. Miss Ynyshir 2005. Was best friends with your great grandfather at time, and we were both on judging panel. You beat that Buddug and Blodwen easily :-)

Now I think I have stumbled into something in your pockets. Emily Ada POCKETTS seems to be happily living with her family in 1881. But was she "dan y blanced" as we say?

Only marriage I can find is William POCKETTS to Elizabeth HIDER in Sept 1873 Gloucester Reg Dist. But if Emily Ada was 9 in C1881 and born Gloucester, could she have been bridesmaid at her mother's wedding.

Being a sensitive, shy and quiet Rhondda girl, I hope you are not shocked. Sit down and have a Welsh cake and a glass of Penderyn. Will have another dig as nothing is falling into place yet.

In C1911, William and Elizabeth POCKETTS were living at 1 Glyntaff St, Glyntaff. Wm was 59, a quarryman, born Gower. Elizabeth was 61, born London. Marriage had lasted 41 years (ie she said they had been married in 1870, not 1873), and she had had 6 confinements ( 4 of them still living),

So she is saying they got married in 1870 and married 41 years. And Emily Ada was eldest and was 9 in C1881 in Glyntaff, yet in C1911 Emily Ada said she was 37!!! :-S :-S

Yes, unfortunately it wasn't me lol :-S

A very majestic name :-D And didn't one marry Richard Burton?

..Also that my name has been passed down so far!! Yey for Elizabeths!!

I just found some of that info myself, which is amazing!

Thank you John... it reads so well as you write it..

I am so pleased to find this out.

Thank you! xx

Here is Emily Ada WICKS on 1881 census in Glyntaff near Crem:

William POCKETTS, 30, general labourer, born Neath
Elizabeth, wife, 34, born London (?)
Emily A, dau, 8, born Gloucester
Elizabeth, dau, 5, born Glyntaff
Alice, dau, 2, b Glyntaff
Richard William, son, 4m, b Glyntaff

In C1911, Emily Ada (38, born Gloucester) is English speaking. Benjamin Joseph WICKS is Welsh speaking but household (aelwyd) will have been English. Emily Ada still appears to be living in same road in C1911 that she did in C1881. Still living on that hill that drops down to Glyntaff (RJ Davies Motors sort of area). Ben 38, born Ponty, works in a stone quarry in C1911.