Genealogy Chat

Elizabeth... Just a thought.

It may be a good idea to visit or email the local registry office where you believe your mum was born and registered at. Just on the off chance that her birth reg didn't make it to GRO in the 3 monthly batches.

I have read that on occasion some have slipped through the net.

Cheers Gerry

Thank you Cheryl and Geraldine.

Its certainly all information I can act upon and maybe, just maybe, I shall be able to find out what happened.

Thanks Janet, yes I wondered if less info was needed just after the war. I know that neither of my parents ever had to take a driving test as they were both eligible to drive during the war, so maybe things were a bit more lax in those days.

Off now to do another lunch hours digging!

Liz

I can ask someone at work tonight if they can help with the passport questions.
I don't deal with these more complex appns and can only go on what I have overheard over the years.
I know children could hold their own passport back then, but not sure what sort of info was req'd.
It is more difficult now though and changes in name need legal docs and in some cases proof that you use that new name for all purposes.

The adopted children register sounds like the next step - if she is on it of course.

Happy hunting

Cheryl

I don't think a birth certificate would've been needed to obtain a passport that far back. A national ID card would have probably surficed.

Good luck. Persistance usually wins out in the end, and information comes from many and strange sources.

Ozi

Thanks Cheryl

I will try the register office in Birmingham and also the Worcester History Centre now that I have, as you say, people agreeing that she was possibly/probably adopted.

It would be great to find out the truth. So far I havent found any hot matches/trees with even a sniff of that side of the family. Ive also put it on Lost Cousins, but nothing from there either. (But then, if shes adopted, its unlikely that anyting useful would turn up for her blood mother as the last info you can submit is 1911, before my grandparents were married)

Good luck with your research too

Hi Ozi

Yes, that is what I would have thought, but if she knew she was adopted, she never told us. This only became a thought over the last couple of weeks, so its pretty new to me, and quite a suprise!

It was because we never knew any of her family to my knowledge, (if we met any of them it was when I was very young) that I embarked on researching the family after she died. (too late for questions!)

As I knew dates of birth, marriage etc, I didnt even bother to look up a reference in the birth records and just carried on from there. (Very remiss I know now, but I'd never done anything like it before)

I have sucessfully found all of my Grandmothers siblings, parents and Grandparents on her mothers side, but hit a brick wall on her fathers side.

Whatever the outcome, I havent wasted time and effort as this was the family she knew and called her own, but I am determined that I will find out the truth if its possible.

Liz

A person can only be born once and a child is registered on the Live Birth Register in their original birth name. A child cannot be re-registered on this Register after adoption.

After an adoption is granted in the court the child is placed on The Adopted Children Register the INDEX of this Register can be found in some main libraries in England and Wales.

An adopted child is issued with new 'birth' certificate. The short cert looks like a regular birth cert, however, the FULL cert gives adoption information, court name and date and adoptive parents names and occupation. Older adoption certificates give Country of Birth.

Elizabeth maybe your mother was officially adopted as an older child when the law came in in 1927 (a person could be adopted right up to the age of 21 in those days) If this was so then she would be listed in The Adopted Children Register. You can view the INDEX to the ACR at Birmingham Central Library.

Just to add that a close relative of mine changed her name and was able to gain a passport in her 'Known as name' this was in the early 1980's. It's not illegal to change your name so long as it's not done for unlawful purposes.

Hope this helps :-)

Cheers Gerry

Surely if she got a passport before she was married she would've known she was adopted as she'd need to apply for her birth cert, or ask her parents for it.

Ozi

Liz,
There is no doubt that your grandparents loved your mother and indeed her grandchildren.
It does sound like you mother was adopted, but if she knew, she never let on. Maybe your grandparents never told her.
It is so frustrating for you as you are stuck with your research, however it's nice to have little things to get your teeth into, if you know what I mean. If we found all of our relatives easily, then it would be boring.
Maybe now that you have more people agreeing that your mother may have been adopted it will spur you on to try to find out the truth.
Maybe you will find family members. Only last year I found that my mum in law had 2 more siblings that she knew nothing of, and she is 67. Her mother had deserted the family and ran off with another man. She had left the 3 children at home alone while their father was at work. The eldest was only 5. Mum in law is now in contact with her half sister.

Maybe you could contact the records office or register office in the area you think you mother was born. They can be very helpful.

Anyway, good luck with you research.

Cheryl

Thanks for that Cheryl

Im almost positive that I have seen a passport of here, in her maiden name, but will have to have a hunt through the trunk of memorabilia to find it! Im sure that when she was a small child she would have been on her parents, as my children were on mine in the early 80's.

Maybe they had a re-registered birth certificate at some point although earlier today I put in her name and searched for birth records between 1923 and 1943 and came up with nothing.

Ive tried to find out whether any aunts or uncles (wives!) gave birth toa child at about the same time, but so far no sucess with that train of thought either.

Still, I'll keep wondering, but, at the end of the day, my Grandparents were who they were, a much loved Mum and Dad and Granny and Grandpa.

Thanks again for the help
Liz

I am a passport officer, but do not do first time passports so apologies if my info is a bit out.

Children today can apply using an adoption cert, although most adoptive parents re-register the birth using their surname.
Up until 1998 a child was on their parents passport and if I remember correctly I had to take my childrens birth cert to get them added on.

Maybe your mother travelled on her parents passport until she married and would then be on her husbands, so maybe she never had one of her own. I believe it came compulsary to have your own around 2000/2001. Basically the old black ones could have a spouse or children and the burgandy ones could only have children on.

Hope that helps a little.

If you find a name that could be her birth name, you could enter it into the searches on here. You may come accross someone who knows more info about your mum. My mum has told me alsorts of family scandel that has been kept secret. you will be surprised what people know but don't talk about.

Anyway, good luck with your search

Please can someone tell me how my Mum would have obtained a passport without a birth certificate? Would a certificate of baptism do as well?

I know that as a smallish child she went on cruises with her parents, probably included on their passports, but I know she travelled to Italy between the end of WW2 and 1951 when she married my Dad and also many times after under her married surname, presumably just the production of the marriage certificate was sufficient to change that?

Thanks
Liz

Thanks Huia

That makes sense of the see June 1926 (I looked it up but I couldnt see any connection)

I did find a Williams Jean E (mmn Williams) Sept 1923 Kings Norton 6d 93 which is local to their home and wondered if that might be it.

I guess I'll probably never know for sure. Its funny how these things never enter your head until its too late to ask!

Liz

But maybe not, there is a Jean E.M. b in Leicester in Sept 1926, mmn Cornell, and a Jean E.A., mmn Hubbard, b Dorking in Sept 1923.

I dont know the answer.

Huia.

Elizabeth, it sounds to me as if she was adopted. Sometimes if an unmarried girl was pregnant she would be sent to 'visit' and aunt or somebody some distance away from her home town, to avoid scandal in her home area. The baby would then be adopted by somebody in the area of the birth.

Possibly the Jean E. Scott was the baby, registered under her mothers name and 'see June 1926' would indicate a new b registration, perhaps under her adoptive parents names?

Huia.

Hi Rootgatherer
I hadnt thought to check Freebmd, so thank you.

I somehow doubt that they would have taken a child from Marylebone as they all came from the Midlands. My grandmother was born Kings Norton, Worcs and grandfather in Tysoe, Warks and they lived in Stockland Green, Birmingham.

I shall look it up myself now as I dont understand the 'see June 1926'
Thanks anyway

I thought this birth registration was interesting - but wrong area. Just wondering if the birth was re-registered or details amended?


From Freebmd births Sep Qrt 1923 - searching using no surname just Jean E

Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a see June 1926
Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a 721

I hadnt realised that adoption records became official that late. It may well have been arranged through that church where she was baptised then as they were strict churchgoers. Interesting! I shall just have to accept it and carry on with the rest of the family.

Suprising what you find out when youre least expecting it!

Thanks Jonesey
At least it sets my mind at rest that there is someone else who cant find anything!

From what Ive read on other posts, it seems that I may never know for sure who her parents might have been as I dont think adoptions are traceable except for the adoptee.

Anyway, thank you very much for trying.

Elizabeth,

Like yourself I too have had no luck in locating a birth registration that fits even after using all the tricks that I know regarding mistranscriptions ect. Bearing in mind what you have now revealed about Elsie's unfortunate child bearing history I would think that it is quite possible that your mother was not the natural child of William and Elsie.

Unfortunately adoption only became "Official" in 1927 so there will be no official adoption records that you can search. Prior to 1927 adoptions were informal affairs often arranged by doctors or church societies.