Genealogy Chat

Well, if your friend needs more help in the future he knows where to find it, but there is only so far you can go without evidence.

Age is no barrier on the internet, I think if he gets into genealogy he will enjoy it as much we do.

Yes the problem is that HARTLEY is a highly localised name and this area of Lancashire is the epicenter of the Hartley empire so it may well prove necessary to get the certs.

However, there is one important clue however that may give us a break: Alice's brother Barrett Hartley.

I had a similar thing happen in my own tree when I ran in to a wall then I plugged the name of a brother of the person I was looking for in this case Lovell Bull into family search. Eventually it emerged that almost all the handful of the Lovell Bulls over the centuries were descended from a double wedding between 2 Bull brothers and 2 Lovell sisters back in 1656.

I've had a quick look at the weddings and births in the area and there was a marriage between a Joseph Hartley and a Betty Barritt in Colne, but I'm not sure whether this maybe a red herring as there is an earlier instance of a Hartley with Barrett as a middle name in Colne

Flip

I agree, I think it is a fascinating hobby, especially for those who have retired. I think for many from the older generation the main barrier is a fear or lack of knowledge of computers but actually I think having a genuine interest that you want to pursue is an excellent way to develop such knowledge.

Don't think Barrett will get you far, as you've alreay said, he is likely to be named after his mother's brother.

Alice is still around in 1911, a widow, at 37 Howsin Street, Burnley - with Maggie (35), Thomas (32, a window cleaner) and grandson Fred (9). On the original states married 38 years, 8 children 2 of which have died, but this has been crossed out.

Thanks Flip, yes you are right Barrett was a Red Herring, I had forgotten that Barrett was Alice's younger brother. Infact the A stood for Atkinson so his full name was Barrett Atkinson Hartley - I guess she really liked her kid brother.

However indirectly it was helpful as checking Barrett Atkinson Hartley's marriage details on the Lancashire site you guys tipped me off for revealed that the second bro who is a witness was called Thomas Wilkinson Hartley.

As Perchino mentioned earlier Wilkinson Hartley 1818 Colne is one of the prime suspects for Thomas's father. Wilkinson who seems to have been named in honour of the minister who baptised him (he seems to be the 4th son of Thomas Hartley and Ellen (probably) Brown - I guess they were running out of ideas for boy's names by then. Wilkinson Hartley married Sarah Thomas is 1844 and named his first son born in 1845 Thomas.

Of course it's circumstantial evidence but they didn't just name Thomas Wilkinson Hartley randomly and the names. dates and locations seem to fit perfectly so I suspect that Perchino managed to find that needle in the haystack. Another one of Wilkinson Hartley's sons, Nathan also seems to have incorporated Wilkinson into one of his children's names.

THANKS ALL WHO HAVE HELPED

Just to let you know we have now heard from a newly discovered 2nd cousin on GR and Wilkinson Hartley does indeed seem to have been the father of Thomas.

1861:

Wilkinson Hartley
Age 42
Estimated Year of Birth 1819
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Warper
Address Reeds
District Haslingden, Rossendale
Parish Higher Booths
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Colne
Birth County Lancashire

Sarah 38 Colne
Thomas 16 Taper b Colne
John 15 Beam warper Colne
Nathan 12 loomer Colne
Ann 5 Rawtenstall
Emanuel 3 Rawtenstall
Robert 9mths Crawshawbooth [Rossendale]

1851

Wilkinson Hartley
Age 32
Estimated Year of Birth 1819
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Hand Loom Weaver Cotton and Worsted
Address
District Burnley, Colne
Parish Colne
Administrative County Lancashire
Birth Place Foulridge
Birth County Lancashire

With same wife & children as 1861 - Thomas is 6 according to the census and working as a Bobbin Under!

These could be Wilkinson, but no sign of a marriage to find Sarah's name:

Baptisms: 27 Dec 1818 St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England
Wilkinson Hartley - Son of Thomas Hartley & Ellen
Abode: Broach Flat
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: W. Wilkinson
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1819, Page 291, Entry 2321
Source: LDS Film 1471024

Burial: 31 Oct 1896 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Wilkinson Hartley -
Age: 78yrs
Abode: Bush St
Grave: A3591
Register: Burials 1895 - 1899, Page 122, Entry 48877
Source: Original Registers Book 7

Think this must be Sarah's death, same address in life & death:

Burial: 22 Apr 1898 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Sarah Hartley -
Age: 74yrs
Abode: Bush St
Grave: A3591
Register: Burials 1895 - 1899, Page 220, Entry 51606
Source: Original Registers Book 7

Pleased to have helped and hope your elderly relative has enjoyed reading all the above.
Another tip, I noticed on one of your threads that you had a grocer. Try looking for the names in the old Trade Directories such as Kellys and Whites and as with other transcriptions referring back to the original often gives more information.
Good luck!

Thanks for all the tips guys. We have established that Wilkinson Hartley married a Sarah Thomas, Wilkinson's parents are Thomas Hartley and Ellen. A plausible marriage for a Thomas Hartley to an Ellen Brown exists in 1807 with a series of 9 children (Wilkinson being the 8th) being for n to Thomas Hartley and Ellen in Colne after that.

Not getting any lucky breaks with easily traceable spouses names I'm afraid.

If this is the marriage you refer to:
Marriages Mar 1844
BROOKS Mary Burnley 21 125
ELTOFT William Burnley 21 125
HARTLEY John Burnley 21 125
xxx HARTLEY Wilkinson Burnley 21 125
STANSFIELD Elizabeth Burnley 21 125
xxx THOMAS Sarah Burnley 21 125
TILLOTSON Ann Burnley 21 125
WALLBANK Emmott Burnley 21 125
then the marriage certificate will give Fathers' names, ages and professions.

Back to the Atkinson's

the 2nd cousin has told us that Robert Atkinson's wife was Ann Varley 1815 Colne, daughter of Bartholomew Varley (of ?) and Mary Dewarden of Colne. who seem to have married in 1813 in Colne

Family search reveals 2 Bartholomew Varleys

1 Born c 1760 in Colne who seems to have married an Agnes in 1781 and not had any children with Agnes
2 Born c 1791 in Leeds

1 Obviously fits location better - did Agnes die and he remarried and had a few kids with a younger second wife?

2 Fits better re dates. But unless the Leeds Varleys are related to the Colne Varleys (which of course is quite possible) would seem a huge coincidence that Leeds BV moves to the one place in the country with an existing BV in town.

3 There could be another Bartholomew Varley not on the records.

Does the 1841/51 census show any Bartholomew Varley living in either Colne , Leeds or elsewhere that might help us??

1841 England Census
Bartholomew Varley
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1791 Gender: Male Civil Parish: Whalley
Hundred: Blackburn (Higher Division)
County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Pinfold (?) Occupation: cotton weaver Registration district: Burnley Sub-registration district: Colne

Bartholomew Varley 50 Not local
Mary Varley 55 local
Ellen Varley 15 local

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 509; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Whalley; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 34; Folio: 39; Page: 13; Line: 12; GSU roll: 306898.

1851 England Census
Bartholomew Varley
Age: 40 NO probably 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1811 Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Varley Gender: M (Male) Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Great Marsden
Ecclesiastical parish: St John County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England Street address: Pinfould
Occupation: weaver Registration district: Burnley
Sub-registration district: Colne ED, institution, or vessel: 1i
Household schedule number: 80

Bartholomew Varley 40
Mary Varley 65
Ellen Varley 28
Margaret Elliott 9 grndau

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2254; Folio: 188; Page: 21; GSU roll: 87278.

Well spotted Pat, doesn't show up on GR & I agree the 1851 census looks like 60 not 40. Looks like the Leeds one is the man.

The Lancashire OPC has a number of christenings for this couple's children - won't post as you can access them yourself, but this looks like their wedding:

Marriage: 10 May 1813 St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England
Bartholomew Varley - (X), Weaver of Colne
Mary Dewarden - (X), Spinster of Colne
Witness: Henry Dewarden; Henry Watson
Married by Banns by: W.Wilkinson off. Minister
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1819, Page 14, Entry 41
Source: LDS Film 1471065

Great & Little Marsden were in the parish of Nelson, but the records don't go back far enongh on OPC to find their births. Maybe a search on IGI will find them?

Many thanks Flip and Patchem.

It's clear the Leeds one son of James is our man

Varley is a common name both in Yorkshire and Lancs and there are well established Varley families in the records for both Colne and Leeds. Though people didn't move around so much its not so surprising that a young man would move from Leeds, the centre of the woolen trade to Lancs the centre of the expanding cotton trade. What I do find surprising though is that of all the places BV might have gone he decides to settle in the one small hamlet which seems to be the only place in the country with another Bartholomew Varley. Intuitively there must be a connection unless its just a big coincidence, but so far I can't find a connection between the two lines of Varleys