Genealogy Chat

birth registration

Births Dec 1881 (>99%)

VEVERS Toward Newcastle T. 10b 53

Baptism

name: Jacobus Edward Vivers
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 18 Jan 1882


I think it is the same baby!



I looked at the original of the registration on freebmd ....... it is a typed entry, and it was Toward.

I don't know about the baptism ........ but just look at the similarity of the names

ToWARD
EdWARD



how easy it would be for one to be mistaken for the other.

especially if the original handwriting was copperplate




Get that birth certificate, Joy ............... see if he really was registered as Toward or Edward!



sylvia

Is there an Edward Vivers born ca 1882?

Just in case he was registered with only one name, but given a second at baptism ............... registrations are not updated when that happens, and it happens a lot!



sylvia

There is nowt anywhere on Jacob. Beta search has made him up!!!

The objective of this exercise was to find the death of Bridget. We have thrown up whole cans of worms on the family. I think this has to be sorted somehow. How?

Well, I think you have to get the birth cert of James Toward

Total rubbish, what I said before about James. He is Toward. Here is the birth:

Births Dec 1881 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VEVERS Toward Newcastle T. 10b 53

Get the cert, please. Pray that his mother is Sarah.

And his father William, as on his marriage cert.

Maybe he called himself James, cos he got fed up of spelling Toward to people.

Now, Flymo or the new Worx leafblower?

Meg

Hi Sylvia,

Just thought I'd let you know that I've tried searching for Jacob Edward's birth, both under Vivers and Vevers, 3 years either side of 1882 and Genes tell me there is nothing in there records!

Back to the drawing board...

Joy :-)

Hi Sylvia,

This is the 2nd time I have written this out, went back to check a page and lost the lot!!

Anyway, I'm really intrigued by Jacob's birth. I don't think it could be correct - but I may be wrong - as James Toward was born 3rd Qtr 1881 and Jacob was born/christened 18 Jan 1882, that would make it 6 or 7 months or so between James being born and Jacob being born?? St Mary's is a Catholic Church, hence the Latin? I can't imagine a baby born prematurely being kept alive for very long in that day and age, so maybe they had him Christened before/after he died and before he could be buried?? All conjecture I'm afraid. The thing is to find his death now - if there is one?
There again I don't know where the name Jacob came from, don't think it's a family name. Definitely not one from either William or Bridget's parents?

Margaret.
Thanks very much for the information. To be honest I've been so wrapped up trying to knock down my Bridget Tarpey 'brick wall' that I haven't looked at any of her immediate family, except for Ellen's Birth Cert, but then only to confirm that her father was in fact Smith Tarpey.

I suppose on reflection I should have tried to do some research on the others, as maybe Bridget could have gone to live with one of them when her condition got really bad??

Thanks to you both for your input, I really appreciate it as I definitely wouldn't have found the information myself.

Cheers.

Joy. :-)

what do you think of this?????


I looked on the new beta.familysearch.org site, entered William Vevers, spouse Bridget Tarpey, 1871 +5

and this came up .... with the names all in Latin



Gulielmi Vivers

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Birgittae Tarpy

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: Jacobus Edward Vivers
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 18 Jan 1882
baptism/christening place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
father's name: Gulielmi Vivers
mother's name: Birgittae Tarpy
indexing project (batch) number: I05214-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1936949



sylvia

Madmeg... My goodness have you been busy!

Where to start - On all the Census I have seen for the Tarpey Family, nowhere has Bridget been anything else but Bridget, no second name showing and although I can't find her birth either, on FreeB.M.D. under the Marriage in 1871 the names given are William Vevers and Bridget Tarpey, no indication of second name?

Yes, I have Ellen's Birth Cert, and although they name her Ellinor on the 1861 Census, on the 1871 Census she is now named Ellen,( born 7 Dec. 1857.)

My Grandad always went by the name Toward and it wasn't until I got his Marriage Cert, I couldn't be sure of him being named James Toward Vevers! I don't have a Birth Cert for him, but I feel sure that his mother was Bridget. My mother always said that Bridget was Irish, but I think that was because both her parents were.

My Grandad told my Mother that he used to have to Brush his mothers hair and I'm assuming that's because of her MND.

I've just realised that I've written all this at the end of page two - so I hope it goes to the end of page 3!!!

I think I've answered everything - except I wouldn't have a clue about the Christmas present...

Thanks ever so much for your input you really deserve a medal!

Cheers.

Joy :-)

I am now getting confused, would appreciate someone (especially Joy), filling in the gaps or errors. Or confirming where I am right.

Your grandfather is James Vevers. There is a birth of James Vevers, b Dec qtr 1881. Joy, do you have his bc and does it name his parents as William Vevers and Bridget Tarpey? This James appears with his father William and step-mother Margaret in 1901. Is he the Toward Nevies in 1891, with parents William and Sarah? So was his full name James Toward Vevers?

Do you have his marriage cert, also confirming his name as James Toward Vevers and his father as William Vevers, a builder? Yes you do. Dec 1901. Sorry, just working through it all. So he was James Toward Vevers. Who married Mary Ethel Lee in 1901. Do you have his birth cert, confirming his mother as Bridget Tarpey?

In 1891 he has a mother(?) Sarah, who dies in 1892. In 1891 there are lots of children of William and Sarah - Sarah 1873, Margaret Ann 1875. John 1877, William 1879, Toward 1882 and Richard 1890. What a long gap between Toward and Richard. Hmm. Assuming you have got the BC of Toward, I'd be very temped towards getting the BC of Richard. It might give a totally different mother's maiden name, thereby knocking on the head that Sarah and Bridget are one and the same person. Which I personally doubt they are.

I can't see that there is any other choice for you.

In 1881, William and wife Bridget have children Mary E, Margaret A, John and William. Seems to be the same family as in 1891. No others fit.

There is a marriage of William Vevers and Bridget Tarpey in 1871. Do you have that cert and does it show their parents? I think you do.

I don't think the change of surnames does anything.

I just set all this down cos I needed to, for myself.

In summary, birth certs of James Toward Vevers and Richard Vevers are needed for comparison.

Do we all agree?

No Joy, you can't dismiss Satnav's Nevres family. The children are too close to ignore. And there is a Toward. Where does that name come from? Never heard of it.

I think this is going to be hard work, folks.

Joy, we don't beat about the bush in the rest of the world!

Ah, so they married in Gretna, that will be on Scotlands People. You obviously have the marriage cert.

And young Catherine gave birth at 14 - oh well, not unknown.

I can't imagine why Bridget changed her name to Sarah, or if someone got confused, or if she was Bridget Sarah or Sarah Bridget. Cos I can find no birth for her.

You say you've got the birth of Ellen - is that the Ellinor born 1858?

I will email the person on Ancestry for you - the amendment was only this year, so the person is likely still active on there - and is possibly your relative.

I feel I need to review all this now, not good at whizzing about on this site, so you might hear more from me in a short while.

Now can anybody tell me whether to get a Flymo leafblower or a Bosch one for my daughter from Christmas? Oh - who cares!

Hi Everyone, gosh you have all been very busy whilst I've been asleep...

Thanks Potty for letting me know about the "unknowns", didn't realise you could search for them.

Margaret in Sussex - you have the correct family on the 1861 Census.

On the 1841 Census the family name is shown as Kirpin, took me ages to track that one down.. Smith ("Kirpin")Tarpey is my Gt.Gt. Grandfather.
I was sidetracked for a while with Bernard Tarpey, but he's definitly not the one.

Caroline. The William and Sarah you have found are definitly not related to me.

Barbara. I couldn't find Bridget's birth either, so got Ellen's cert. instead and Smith Tarpey is definitely the father on it.

SatNav. I have previously looked at the name Nevres, as well as other connotations of the name Vevers, and Nevres is definitely not mine.

Re. Richard Vevers you have found. Williams father was called Richard, so maybe William had a brother called Richard, who called his son Richard? There are a lot of Vevers in Cumberland and I have only been concentrating on my William trying to sort out Bridget before going on to extending the family.

Caroline. James, my Grandfather was the last child born to Bridget from what I can tell, (family history...) William remarried in 1896 to Margaret Little from Scotland and "apparently" had a daughter called Mary b. 1901, although I cannot find anything about her either! apart from her being on the 1911 Census!!

Mad Meg. Catherine is Definitely the mother of Ann and Bridget. She and Smith were married at Gretna Green, June 23 1843, Catherine was already pregnant and only 14/15 yrs old. Smith Tarpey Died in 1858. I wouldn't know how to contact anyone...

I have Daughter Catherine Tarpy (no e), on the 1871 census at age 17, There is also a Grandson on the Census, but I don't know who's son he is?

Not sure about the Sarah Vevers being Bridget - why would she change her name? I'll have a look at the entry.

Thank you all so very much I truly appreciate all of your help.

Thanks again.
Joy :-)

I think you have to get that death in 1892 of Sarah Vevers to confirm wife of William. Now, is she Bridget?

Joy, I can't find any marriage for Smith Tarpey.

Could this be the birth of daughter Catherine:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Catherine Turpin Name: Catherine Turpin
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Carlisle
County: Cumbria, Cumberland
Volume: 10b
Page: 377 (click to see others on page)

No such person in Carlisle in 1861. No death.

1851 England Census
about Bridget Kirpin Name: Bridget Kirpin
[Bridget Tarpey]
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Lodger (dau of lodger)
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil Parish: English Street
Ecclesiastical parish: St Cuthbert
Town: Carlisle
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: Wetheral
ED, institution, or vessel: 9d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 36
Household Members: Name Age
James Higgins 43 Head b Ireland
Ann Higgins 21 Wife b Ireland
Smith Kirpin 43 (Lodger) b Ireland
Cathrine Kirpin 21 (wife of lodger) b Ireland
Ann Kirpin 7 (dau of lodger) b Carlise
Bridget Kirpin 1 (dau of lodger) b Carlisle.

Amended by an Ancestry member. I have to say it does look like Kirpin, the amender has said the original data is incorrect.

Joy, are you able to contact this person, or would you like me to?

I would doubt that Cathrine Kirpin is the mother of Ann.

I'm submitting this before I get confused!

I have looked at the cencus and it looks like he was a builder in 1891 and checked marriages and william married bridget in 1871 carlisle and mary was born carlisle 1872 .
There is a gap of nine years between james toward and richard.

I go with SatNav. Check mothers name on Richard's birth certificate.

FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
Sarah Vevers abt 1851 1892 Newcastle Upon Tyne Northumberland, Tyne and Wear

Wonder who the mother is?
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Richard Vevers
Name: Richard Vevers
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10b
Page: 71

1891????????
Wm Nevres Sarah abt 1851 Newcastle Upon Tyne Head Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
Sarah Nevres Wm abt 1852 Newcastle Upon Tyne Wife Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
Mary Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1872 Newcastle Upon Tyne Daughter Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
Mgt Ann Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1875 Newcastle Upon Tyne Daughter Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
John Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1877 Newcastle Upon Tyne Son Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
William Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1879 Newcastle Upon Tyne Son Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
Toward Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1882 Newcastle Upon Tyne Son Westgate, Northumberland
View Record
Richard Nevres Wm,
Sarah abt 1890 Newcastle Upon Tyne Son Westgate, Northumberland

Just checking the William with Sarah and kids - it has them all down as being born Newcastle - how certain are you this is them?