Genealogy Chat

HI Margaret,

The DNA test was taken on my brother a year ago prior to my linking up' with another possible descendent. I knew that my gt gt grandfatehr had worked in India. At that time I did not know fully that my gt grandfather had the Indian origins, only that another distant family member did. So I wanted to determine whether the family had Indian origins.

We did suspect that somewhere along the line our family had Indian origins but we don't know where it started. The Indian trait is only in my branch of the family. I wondered whether my gt grandfather was 'adopted' or the natural child. My very elderly aunt then told me that her granddad had the features of someone from India, she then also told me about the Gurkha in the family.

I do accept that things like this happen. I did accept everything I saw on paper was the truth. But I now know that's not so. I wanted to know why my gt gt grandfather went to India. He appeared to be an ordinary working man. When I discovered a son was born in India I just presumed his wife accompanied him afterall I did find her application for passport so just assumed to accompanied him and the child was his. Then when I discovered my Indian heritage that threw another series of questions. Did my gt grandfather have an affair and the result was the child born there. Because of the conflicts in India at that time it is just possible that both children were orphans and taken in by the family. I just want to know the truth and find our true line, that's all.

When we 'linked' together we only had circumstantial evidence, nothing concrete to link the two families together. The only true was to find out whether our families were the same. was the DNA route. Unfortunatley that has now brought about new questions. From my understanding the closer the looks the nearer the true line. The further back the true line the occasional 'throwback'. If my gt grandfather was a throw back then his offspring would not carry the features so intensly. The true line must be closer to the present time. It's all about why we all start this journey of discovery isn't it?

I hope this helps to understand.

Regards, Lou

I am perhaps being a bit thick here.

Most of us just accept that the fella who is stated as being our father on our birth certificate, and who brought us up, is our father.

I appreciate your dilemma that one supposed descendant of your g grandfather has Indian features and one doesn't. But I stil don't know why you can' t accept that this sometimes happens. All blonde families sometimes produce a brunette.

If you are proposing to dig up your great grandfather to have his DNA checked, well good luck to you. I don't think many of us will be bothering with that.

I may sound a bit callous, and I don't mean to be, cos this must be something very important to you, but I can't see why.

Margaret

Hi Gwyn in Kent,

Yes, we tried that one too, with no luck as it appears he didn't make a Will. We can't find their marriage either, she was under age so we thought that should be much easier, plus with her father being in the Army we wondered whether the Army Chaplain married them, but no luck their, can't find the marriage in India although all their children were born there.

Regards, Lou

Have you looked for Wills?
Sometimes these will mention relationships.
I have seen a deceased mention his married sisters children by name, thus setting me on the right track to find the sisters marriages.


Gwyn

Hi LancashireAnn,

Thanks, but I've already tried that site and can't find any baptism for any of their other children. I've searched through each individual record on there with no luck.

Regards, Lou

Hi PigletsPal and Madmeg.


The reason for the DNA tests were because my gt gt grandfather went to India where a child was born and baptised. We knew his wife applied for her passport but we don't know whether she did travel. On the child's baptism record their names appear as the parents. This child was the brother of my gt grandfather, but none of his offspring carry the Indian features. We do not know whether he himself had any Indian characteristics. His brother (my gt grandfather) did have as mentioned Indian characteristics, but he was born in England. Their remaining siblings as far as we know did not carry any such characteristics.

The child born in India 'disappeared' from England after 1871 census was taken. We now know that he returned to India as a young man, married and remained there. Unfortunatley we don't have the evidence to back up that he is the brother of my gt grandfather, all we have are 12 pieces of co-incidences. We can't find his marriage certificate. But my family knew that somewhere in our history one became a Gurkha. And this is one of the pieces of co-incidences. The child born in India - it was his son who became a Gurkha.

So we have a child of the family who was born in England but carried the Indian features

A child born of the same family who did not carry the features.

But with no evidence to link his descendents to mine and with no Indian features in his family we needed to find another way to see if there was a connection. DNA testing was the only way to prove the family link. But mine came back obviously Indian whereas his wasn't. We are not even close.

So basically this means that
1 neither are the natural children
2 one is the natural child and 1 was adopted into the family

As mentioned birth certificates and baptism records don't necessary mean the parents are the natural ones. So we need to find another direct male living line to see if we can have another DNA test done to see if it matches to either of the other two.

We both felt that we were related because of the amount of circumstantial evidence, but wanted the proof and without that how claim a tree is your true natural line?

We thought the DNA tests would be the proof we needed to link our two families together rather than relying of the co-incidences, but what is has done now is open up another set of questions.

Regards, Lou

you don't say what era you are looking for but have you tried this site - you may be able to find a baptism - many of those on this site on not on the familysearch site

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/monprts.htm

A birth certificate will not prove anything - only that whoever registered the birth SAID the parents were A and B. They may have been A and B's milkman.

Hi InspectorGreenPen,

Many thanks for the info you have given me, it's been very usefull and I've made notes of it for future reference. I think I will contact Newport and see how accommodating they really are. If they are not helpful then I think I will take a chance and order the Newport one and keep fingers crossed.

thanks again InspectorGreenPen.

Hi Amokavid,

Although my hubby is taking me away for the week-end and part of it is spending time at Wakefield Rec office for half a day on the way home, I do have lots of my own research to do, otherwise I'd offer to help. If I ever go that way again I will let you know.

thanks again everyone for your help, it's been very usefull.

Regards, Lou

Hi RutlandBelle,

Thanks very much, I think it's Newport that I need. On the only cenus of him before they went to England it says born in Llantarnam. So I'm going with the Newport one I think. Although before his birth the family lived in Abergavenny and some of his siblings were born there.

Thanks again for your help. I think I will contact Newport.

Regards, Lou

There is s difference between Reference Checking and just quoting the parents name.

Whilst they no longer do reference checking - which involved GRO staff searching the register for a period for a possible match with the reference point, should the original you requested be incorrect - it is still possible to quote the parents names when ordering a birth certificate.

If any of the names are incorrect then they will not issue the cert. They won't, however make any further searches, unlike what happened with reference checking. If you have a GRO ref then you quote this. If not then you specify a year and they will search one year either side for the first instance of the registered persons name.

Please not that different rules can apply for where the event is more recent than 50 years. The form you will be presented with will vary depending on the date you enter on the first page, and whether or not you are supplying the GRO ref.

Strictly speaking local Register Offices are not supposed to reference check either, but some may be more accommodating than others, especially if they are not particularly busy.

this is a list of all Reg Offices in England and Wales

Very useful, I use it a lot

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/regoff.html#836

Personally I would contact Monmouthshire either by e-mail or phone. Having said that the registers are now apparently divided between Newport, Torfaen and Merthyr Tydfil districts so you would need to know which area.

Click on a district name to see the places and dates covered, or see the Index of Place-Names for the whole of England and Wales (1837-1974).

Abergavenny
Bedwellty
Caerleon
Cardiff
Chepstow
Crickhowell
Hereford
Monmouth
Newport
Pontypool

from FreeBMD site

Hi Amokavid,

Yorkshire is a nightmare of a place to find info. Believe me I've tried and have gone round in circles there too. There are so many different areas and my family moved around a lot which means to look up the parish records takes lots of long distance trips as I need to go to so many districts as they dont' have all the records I need in one place. I have tried to search their local offices with no luck. You just might be lucky and find a middle initial which might help. Give it a try.

If I find something on Free bmd I can then look at my local free bmd and find in most cases the parish they married / born in which cuts down so much time when you go to the record office.

Good Luck.

Lou

Hi Brummiejan,

I need it desperatly.

Because I and another 3rd cousin have both had DNA testing on our direct male lines. We had hoped to discover we were 100% the same family. Long story but we both have the same gt gt grandfather (we thought) but of his children one ( my gt grandfather) carrried the Indian features & born in England, whereas his brother (who was born in India) does not. Our DNA is not even close. So it's opened up a whole load of questions. We are now trying to find another direct male line. I have made contact with what I think is another brother's descendents (as they emigrated to the US, but without the birth certificate we don't know for sure. They have the USA marriage cert / license for their ancestor but it doesn't include any area for father's name, but it does give a birth date, year and area. The birth year and area are the same as mine, but they don't want to get the birth cert in case it's a waste of money !! but with two other children born the same year in the same area with different families it's expensive for me to get all 3. If i order the birth cert which matches her's date of birth it may not be my ancestor. So I'd much rather get the birth certificate for my ancestor and the reference check would have been so helpfull.

Lou

Not sure how you get round this. As you have both parents, how much do you need it? Personally, I'm being a lot more economical with the ordering these days!
Jan

Hi Amokavid,

That's a little silly.

f I only give them the name of the person and a rough year, how on earth will they know which one to send me? There are about 3 for the same period with the same name?

Regards, Lou

I don't know which birth cert to order as there are 3 possibilities, if I add both parents name for cross reference checking with the GRO still check they have the correct birth certificate before sending it to me? I've just been onto their site and can't find anything, they used to do cross ref checking but I've head stories that they have stopped it. I've tried searching for a baptism but none were baptised.

Or are they not doing any kind of reference checking now? I don't know whether to order it from the GRO or Monmouthshire direct. So any help or advice would be helpfull.

Thanks Lou