Genealogy Chat

The are many who would and equally many that would not like their personal details in the public domain.

To say just don't look is naive why should a complete stranger have access to my LIVING families details. They are PERSONAL to my family. Perhaps then if you wish then you should be allowed to petition for a particular extract rather than full access and information given out only if a close family connection established and if a person is living consent obtained.

It is also naive to think a change in the law is just for the 1921. RR is right when she says it is the thin end of the wedge. The LIVING should be protected from the prying eyes of others.

The 100 year closure was never a 'promise' to the people, it was decided by govt alone, more than likely to hide their own dark secrets.

I know a lot of elderly people who would be on the 1921 census and would love to see it for themselves.

This debate cuts both ways, but the old adage 'don't look if you don't want to know' would still apply to those against the request.

Well done Guy.

How do you expect the 'sensitive information' that someone is in prison to be 'redacted' or that 'grandad is living with her down the road and not his wife and kids'? THAT is sensitive in my view...not whether someone was blind deaf or dumb...

WHO decides what constitutes "sensitive"? Will you be the judge of whether the conditions of my family in 1961 ( the first census I appear on) are "sensitive" to those living now? or is that to be done by 'democratically elected MPs'...the ones I didn't vote for at this last election!

Secret Red “How could you know with certainty what was common knowledge back then? People kept things secret from neighbours, even down to their names and true ages? Besides I'm not arguing from a legal point of view but purely from an expectation of privacy for specifically those who are living who don't want people TODAY to know their background. There will be some from that era who may not want their details spread across the internet.”

I cannot of course know for certain but the newspapers of the time carried stories about census entries.
Even as early as 1851 newspapers carried comments about and from the census.
For instance the Portsmouth woman who declared herself head of the house.
She apparently listed herself as a mangleworker and her husband’s occupation as ‘turns my mangle’.

Such reports as that in newspapers and the comments in newspapers and magazines of the time would give rise to the assumption by the population that the census was open to scrutiny.

Don’t forget the 1841 and the 1851 census were released a few years before in 1912.

“You also mentioned (on chat) that you would be quite happy for the census details today to be released after it had been of some use with sensitive data removed .”

Ye I was asked what my personal feeling about such records was. I also stated the official recommendation for most public records was to reduce the closure period from 30 years to 15 years and there was a recommendation for the census to be open after 80 years.
I acknowledged I would be happy with that situation.

I don’t see how I am casting aside others when I state I support sensitive information being redacted (withheld).

If someone feels that age for instance is sensitive then it is for them to show why they think that is sensitive.
Cheers
Guy

Government policy, or rather the distrust of it has always influenced personal information in the various censi. The 1851 census was the first to contain birthplace information. However many individuals simply lied and put their current location as their place of birth due to fears that information could be used against them. At this time although Removal Orders had been abolished, the knowledge of them still heavily weighed in peoples minds, some who would have been painfully subjected to them earlier in their lives. Do not forget in the past, a number of enumerators were killed and others seriously injured due to distrust.

I have already said it twice in this debate and will say it again, most of the genealogical information required from 1911 up to 2005 can be readily obtained by cross referencing BMD's and other availiable information. The main thing that is not there is address information, occupation status and who was living in a houisehold at a particular time. On the latter we simply do not known that information for the years in between censi anyway. On the former, electoral roles and telephone directories greatly assist in filling in the blanks.

I do not use the 1911 census. Apart from not being able to afford the high cost, I have found I simple do not need it. Brainpower and research of other existing information usually fills in any gaps. I already know the relationships of most people my reasonably large tree in 1921. I also already know that same information for 1931/41/51/61/71/81/91/2001-2005 and all years inbetween.

Why all this fuss to to speed up the process to find a few missing pieces of information to that which is already availiable is something I find difficult to understand.

Don't forget, there was no internet assistance when people like I and many other started genealogical research. However, this did not stop us successfully creating our trees.

Michael

Well said Secret Red Squirel I totally agree with you.

Also,

"The first census that included the promise the census returns would be closed for 100 years was the 1981 census"

You could also argue that people who were children when any census records were taken had no control over what was put down on census records. They could not object to their details being submitted for all the world to see. In fact probably most of the power lay with the head of the household.

Also, as census data didn't appear to be published until the 100 years was up (if it was, little was known about it) then most people completed their census records with the expectation that it wouldn't be released until 100 years. If they thought in 1970 that their records were going to be released in 2010, they may not have put the same data down.

Hi Guy,

How could you know with certainty what was common knowledge back then? People kept things secret from neighbours, even down to their names and true ages? Besides I'm not arguing from a legal point of view but purely from an expectation of privacy for specifically those who are living who don't want people TODAY to know their background. There will be some from that era who may not want their details spread across the internet.

You also mentioned (on chat) that you would be quite happy for the census details today to be released after it had been of some use with sensitive data removed .You mentioned 5 or 30 years? Personally if census records mirrored data in 1921 (which I know that they don't exactly) but I would not want anyone to see ANY of this data about me.

Name & Surname,
Relationship to Head,
Age,
Sex,
Married or Orphaned,
Birthplace,
Nationality,
School,
Occupation,
Employment,
Place of work,
Total Children Under 15,
Ages of Children


I'm quite adamant on this. What is the point of releasing this information apart to satisfy someone's desire to further a hobby. You may be putting people at risk in so many ways, people running away from others for whatever reason including domestic violence who may have settled somewhere else. Identity theft?

Also I may not want people to know that I was a stripper 5/10/20/30 years ago or a policeman or a prison officer. Indeed I may not want people to know that my mother was living in a brothel 90 years ago about the time that I was born.

You're very keen to bring up the legal aspects of this but I find you very reluctant to see things from people's point of view that may be hurt by the release of these documents. You champion those that would love to see the data but appear to cast the others aside.

and may I suggest that on the same note anyone against it's release should also lobby their MP to this effect so they get a balance point of view from the electrorate

The 1921 census will not be released without a change in the legislation to allow it to be released.
There is no legislation that allows the release after 100 years as some seem to think.

May I suggest anyone interested in getting the 1921 census released write to an MP or Cabinet Minister at the House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA.

In addition please visit the HMG Your Freedom suggestions site and add a comment and rate my suggestion at

http://tinyurl.com/2vju6b9

Please remember I believe in democracy and welcome comments both for and against my suggestion. The important point is to make a comment.

Perhaps I should also mention I have had encouraging letters from both 10 & 11 Downing Street, The Prime Minister & Chancellor.
Cheers
Guy

InspectorGreenPen thanks for your comment, I will try to amend my style of writing on the forum.
Cheers
Guy

Secret Red I would be interested to know what serious implications on the privacy of living individuals you are referring to.
People mention such terms but never explain what they mean by privacy.

The 1921 census did not ask any questions that would not have been common knowledge in 1921 to the people in the neighbourhood.
As those facts were common knowledge they could not be regarded as private.

I will list the questions in case you missed them.

Name & Surname,
Relationship to Head,
Age,
Sex,
Married or Orphaned,
Birthplace,
Nationality,
School,
Occupation,
Employment,
Place of work,
Total Children Under 15,
Ages of Children

The Welsh schedules also asked if a Welsh language speaker or not.
Cheers
Guy

I agree with IGP and SRS.

Well, uhm yes. Don't normally bother with Chat Board but I see what you mean, having taken a peek.

I'll steer clear for now.....!

Echoing my views on your thread on chat, personally I'm opposed to the 1921 census and all subsequent census records being released early. I think this could serious implications on the privacy of living individuals.

Guy, Your responses to arguments on here do come across as robust, no question about that, but some may find this rather daunting.

Whilst your efforts to assist research into genealogy are commended, can I suggest that your opinions are not necessarily those of all the members on this site, and they should be allowed to voice their opinions without being treated as though they are in a court of law.

I believe I was answering the previous poster.

Guy, I am aware that you campaigned for early release of the 1911 census. However, although you speak in such a derogatory tone about the Federation of Family History Societies, it did campaign for the early release of the 1911 census.

Guy thank you for your candid reply

However, as you are most probably aware the National Archive as a searchable database for British Home Children so the need for the 1921 census to be released is not necessary.

As this thread has shown that the opposition to the release is equal if not greater to the 1921 census release than in favour and this opinion should be consider and not discarded.

I would prefer to lobby parliament to put restrictions on personal information about it's living citizens being made available so easily. I am not impressed that information about me as been made available on the web without my consent.

Joy I answered your question on 28th July 2010 08:12 in this thread.

TootiFruity, I am keen to have the census released for a number of reasons. One being hundreds (if not thousands) of emails and letters asking for help from people who have lost their family such as the British Home Children.
For some such records will not help for others they are imperative.

As for the suggestion that I am going to benefit financially no, in fact I have spent a great deal of time and money in fighting to have the various records released.

Will I benefit in another way yes, guilty. I benefit from the letters of thanks I have received from people who have managed to discover their heritage due to records such as the 1911 census and the 1939 National Registration being released early. That is more than enough reward for me.
Cheers
Guy

I had asked a similar question on Family Tree Forum:
"As a matter of interest, Guy, why the rush from a personal point of view? Why would you not be content to wait?
Is it because the 1931 census documents were destroyed in a fire and the 1941 was not taken and, therefore, it may be the last one to be released in your and my lifetime?"