Genealogy Chat

Any Ideas ?.... Please Give It A Go
Here's what I definitely know to be true: My grandfather Llewellyn John Davies, was born in 1909. He served in 1st Battalion Welch Regiment and was based at Salamanca Barracks in Aldershot at the time of his marriage (5th December 1931). He married my grandmother Mary Hickey in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales. Llewellyn died in 1965 (aged 56) in Merthyr Tydfil - occupation was Out Crop Borer. Here's some of the problem: My mother, and her siblings, remember very little of their father, Llewellyn - she doesn't know his parents names,but says that he was brought up by another family in a lodging house. She also remembers that he had 'step-brothers/sisters' in the Rhondda Valleys - namely Treherbert and Treorchy. She doesn't know where Llewellyn was born, but he was definitely Welsh! Some other details: Llewellyn and Mary's marriage certificate states that father was Robert Davies - deceased, occupation Coal Miner The witnesses at the marriage were Eileen Hickey (Mary's sister) and Robert Davies (possibly Llewellyn's brother??) What little progress I have made: I ordered a birth certificate for Llewellyn John Davies 1909 Pontypridd - which is the right district. It is the only birth I can find fitting the full name and correct year. I was hoping that the father's name would state Robert Davies - how wrong I was. It states the birth address in Treherbert, with the mother's name Margaret Martha Davies, occupation Charwoman. However, the father's name and occupation have just a line drawn through the box. Could this mean that father was unknown - or is 'father unknown' stated on certificates? Could the father have died before the birth registration - or would his name be included and 'deceased' marked on certificate, as on marriage certificate? Or could there be other explanations - such as Margaret not wishing to name father? I have started to research the Welch Regiment side of things, but this is more difficult as Llewellyn did not die in service. I am considering researching Mining Records (if there are any) to see if they have Robert Davies, but I guess it's quite a common name so not holding out much hope of being certain I have the correct Robert Any suggestions on what I can do next? Thanks very much, in anticipation of your many replies! Apologies for such a long message Gail

Gail,

Not seeing Llewellyn John Davies 1909 Pontypridd on FreeBMD.

If there's no father listed on his birth cert. then Margaret wasn't married.

Have you looked on the 1911 census?

Rose

Oh dear, Gail, I don't hold out much hope for you.

First the birth certificate. I would guess it means he was illegitimate, the mother being unmarried. If the father was unknown, it wouldn't be likely she'd admit to that. If he were her husband, but deceased, she would be more likely to say so, but then her maiden name would be shown.

On marriage, he may have simply made up a father's name so as not to be embarassed.

Then there is the problem of the surname Davies. There will be hundreds of them, all called Robert, John, William and Llewellyn. And the alternative spelling of Davis.

I'm all for looking for needles in haystacks, but you have one very big haystack here.

My own gg grandfather was John Davies (never found his birth). His wife was Margaret, their son was Llewellyn. Never found a thing on them.

I wish you luck, but I think you'll need divine intervention to solve this.

Rose, I've checked the 1911. Unusually, most of the Llewellyns have a second name which isn't John, the few with no second name are all in established families, none with father Robert.

Does the birth date on the birth cert. match what your mother and her siblings remember? I'm talking about the day and month.

Rose

Found is spelt differently:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Llewelyn John Davies
Name: Llewelyn John Davies
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Pontypridd
County: Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 11a
Page: 747


Rose

Gail, was it this birth you sent for:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about John Llewellyn Davies
Name: John Llewellyn Davies
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Pontypridd
County: Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 11a
Page: 684 (click to see others on page)

Oh, possibly try the other.

Just a thought,if your L J Davies was born to a single mother, it would explain why he was farmed out to another family.

Gail

My grandmother was born illigitamate and on her birth cert it only had her mothers name. My grandmother was named with her mother's maiden name as she was not married at the time. (Green). 3 years later her mother married Mr James Teasdale.

On my grandmother's marriage cert, she gives James Teasdale as her father, but her entry is in Green otherwise known Teasdale (she grew up using Teasdale as her surname).

The point which I am trying to make is that, although Llewelyn's mother was unmarried at time of his birth, he may well have used his father's name Robert Davies, because his father was also a Davies/Davis, particularly as he may have had a brother Robert as witness.

Also, it was not unknown for cousin-cousin relationships to take place- particularly in little villages.

Try looking in the census' for Robert Davis in the same villages to Margaret Martha it may show something up.

Good luck with it, one of the worst surnames to deal with!
Dee

Thanks everyone for your responses...much appreciated

Yes, Rose, that is the birth certificate I have.
Madmeg...I agree with you and think divine intervention is the only way forward!

Apparently, Llewellyn was brought up by another family - with the surname Lane. They ran a lodging house. My elderly aunt remembers 'a Robert' but cannot connect with any surname, and she is a bit vague bless her. Her memory is fading. She also mentions a Sarah May Lane (she always smiles when talking about Sarah May) but she cannot remember if Robert was her husband or father!

Thanks again

Gail

Don't ignore your aunt. She might be a bit senile, but long term memory stays with people.

So is Llewellyn with the LANEs in 1911?
If you could find where he was living during childhood, you might be able to find a school register which might name his parents / parent.


Gwyn

What about this one?

1911 census transcription details for: Gateghouse Aber Road Bangor
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN34513 RG78PN1996 RD631 SD4 ED6 SN17

Reg. District: Bangor Sub District: Llanllechid
Parish: Llanllechid Enum. District: 6
Address: Gateghouse Aber Road Bangor
County: Carnarvonshire
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
DAVIES, Robert Llew Head Married M 29 1882 General Farm Labourer Carnarvonshire Llandegai
DAVIES, Ellen Wife Married
10 years F 29 1882 Housekeeper Carnarvonshire Llandeiniolen
DAVIES, Richard Owen Son M 11 1900 School Carnarvonshire Llanrug
DAVIES, Ellen Daughter F 9 1902 School Anglesey Llanfar P G
DAVIES, Robert Son M 7 1904 School Carnarvonshire Llandeiniolen
DAVIES, Mary Grace Daughter F 5 1906 School Carnarvonshire Llandeiniolen
DAVIES, Llewelyn Gwynedd Son M 2 1909 Glanmorgan Nantymoel
DAVIES, Alun Son M 1 1910 Carnarvonshire Llanllechid

Everything fits, Barbara, but I think this may be the Llewelyn you found.

Marriages Mar 1934
Davies Llewelyn G Lewis Bangor 11b 612 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Jones Griffith Pritchard Bangor 11b 612
Lewis Violet Davies Bangor 11b 612
Pritchard Mary Jones Bangor 11b 612

There is this. If somebody would check the details for 1911.

Births Jun 1886
Davies Margaret Martha Merthyr T. 11a 564a

1911:
DAVIES MARGARET F 1887 24 Pontypridd Glamorganshire - born Merthyr Tydfil

This is the only one mentioning Merthyr.

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

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ADEY, Harriet Head Widow F 53 1858 Staffordshire VIEW
ADEY, Joseph Son Single M 20 1891 Coal Miner Hewer Glam Wales Merthyr VIEW
ADEY, Harriet Daughter Single F 18 1893 Glam Wales Merthyr VIEW
ADEY, Phoebe Daughter Single F 15 1896 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
ADEY, Sarah Daughter Single F 14 1897 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
ADEY, Hannah Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
ADEY, Henry Son Single M 9 1902 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
DAVIES, Margaret Daughter Married
8 years F 24 1887 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
DAVIES, Davie John Son In Law Married M 29 1882 Coal Miner Hewer Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
DAVIES, Davie Thomas Son Single M 4 1907 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW
DAVIES, Lizzie Ann Daughter Single F 2 1909 Glam Chease Terrace Merthyr VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
32298 Reference:
RG14PN32298 RG78PN1852 RD589 SD3 ED6 SN183

Registration District:
Pontypridd Sub District:
Llantrisant EnumerationDistrict:
6 Parish:
Llantrisant

Address:
45 Meyler St Thomas Town Tonyrefail County:
Glamorganshire

Thanks for your help everyone....I will keep plugging away

Gail