Genealogy Chat

Thankyou all for your help & advice. Rachel Woodcock has been easier as her Fathers name on the certificate was Israel not so common as Thomas or George Wilson,
It's strange isn't it that it never occurred to me that he could have been both a Smith & a Sweep. I guess I'm to bound up in how it was when i was young. I need to break out of the mould so to speak.
You have all been so helpful I will be contacting you again as my Husband is keen for me to look at his tree based in Leeds/Bradford area of Yorkshire
Happy Easter to everyone
Sandy

Oh, just to add that Sylvia is right, people did make up fathers if they were illegitimate. Did his wife name a father? And was she perhaps older than him, so he made up a date of birth too?

Now maybe Thomas was a smith when George married, but found there was little work for him in that line, and son George being successful in getting contracts for some of the big houses in the area, he decided to help out. Thomas being older would be the one at the bottom with the poles and George would go up the chimney.

Who knows?

Sandy, I don't think you'll get any further with this branch. Sad to say. But I have branches myself that have stopped about that time. We all have.

But getting back to 1849 is pretty good for lots of us.

How about Rachel Woodcock? Can we help with her?

Best wishes

Margaret

It's going to be hard this Sandra.

I'd be happier if the George you found in 1841 was 25 rather than 20.

So I looked at that 1841 census with George and father Thomas who is Independent. And I don't think it means he is self-employed, I think it means he is rich.

This must be a relatively posh area of London (I know nothing about London, it is somewhere "down south" to me). The district only has 16 pages, which is very small compared to most areas. So indicative of the fact that the houses are spread apart with driveways etc. rather than rows of terraces and basements, cos districts were split according to how many houses an enumerator could get through at once.

There are loads of people who are Independent. And a good proportion not born there (so "gone up to London for the season"?. But there are also loads of people who are in professions and upmarket trades. There's an accountant (three of them, oops four), shorthand writer (WOT, when most people couldn't even sign their own names?), carpenters, masons, a bookseller, a perfumier, governess, greengrocer, solicitor (three of them spotted so far, oops a fourth, and a fifth), an Excise officer, shipbroker, Notary Public, Stock Broker, Surgeon.

I was about to say this is not the sort of area to produce a chimney sweep, when I found - two chimney sweeps!

But I still don't think the Thomas of Independent means is likely to be a smith, or your man in Islington District 19.

He's likely pretty rich.

Just my opinion at the moment. Happy for somebody to tell me I am wrong.

Here's the Thomas, Chimney Sweep, wife Caroline born France:

1851 England Census
about Thomas Wilson
Name: Thomas Wilson
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green

Civil parish: St George in The East
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: St George In The East
Sub-registration district: St John
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Wilson 50
Caroline Wilson 40

I hate to throw this dampener out



........ but it also possible that George made up his father's name on the marriage certificate.


it was not uncommon for illegitimate children to do that.


They did often add (deceased) for father ..... as that could explain why he wasn't at the wedding!!!


What are the names fo the witnesses on the certificate?


That can be another way to find family.





sylvia

He could certainly been working as a Sweep and a Smith. If I remember correctly, sweeps were classed as the lowest of the low (Mayhew's characters by Henry Mayhew) and it is possible that he also worked as a smith to supplement his income.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the occupation, my great grandfather worked as a translator on ocean liners then came to England and worked as a skin dyer, chef and kitchen porter all within the space of 10 years.

my husband has a family name 'harley'. Given to the first born son. It originated from the mothers maiden name and started in 1873 and is still given today to the first son.
It is a very common thing in scotland to have your mothers maiden name as your middle name.

Ashton might be a clue to one of his earlier ancestors ie. I've just been looking up the family of a James Morris who married Esther Owen. (James Morris' mum was a Betty Prescott.) James and Esther had a son Richard who married Alice Fletcher, and three of Richard's children were given the forenames James Fletcher, Prescott and Owen.

One of James and Esther's own children was a William Prescott Morris (so they were using his paternal grandma's name) and another child, James, named his son William Owen Morris.

So there's just a chance that, somewhere back in the family you're following up, somebody will have married an Ashton - could be his mother's maiden name or even one of his grandmothers' maiden names.

Thanks for info certainly don't wish to complain but glad I know what Request review means now.
It does look like Smith on the marriage certificate but it would be good if it said Sweep. You are obviously cleverer than me as I missed a Thomas who was a Sweep.
On the 1841 Census there is the following
Thomas Wilson 65 Ind
Mary Wilson 45
Jane Wilson 20 1821
George Wilson 20 1822
Eliza Wilson 9 1832
Ashton Wilson 7 1834
Ashton an unusual name for this era??
Living at Sherborne Place Street Finsbury Islington MDX
St.Mary Islington East MDX
But I can find no record of any of them after this.
There are others in 1841 census where it says Ind
was this common on that census?
Thanks once again for all of your suggestions
Sandy

Request Review means you want to complain about something that someone has said - please don't do that to us!

Sometimes parents turn up with their offspring later in life. I can only find your George and Rachel in 1851 and 1861, no dad turns up.

Are you sure it says "Smith" on the cert, cos there is a Thomas aged 50 in 1851 who is also a Chimney Sweep.

You're going to find it difficult to get back further without spending money I think, because the name is not unusual. Does the one you've found with son George have other children we can try to trace forwards?

"Ind" could possibly mean he was self-employed. Are there others in the same district with the same description - it might indicate that the enumerator did this with several of them.

Ind or independent means. Usually means a person who has no need to work.So it could well be your man retired.

I have a cordwainer (shoe maker) who went on to be a policeman and went back to making boots in his latter years.

So occupations can change markedly.

Thanks again everyone.
What does it mean when it says, Request review at the side of the note?
Do I need to do anything with this?
Sorry for my ignorance
Sandy

In 1861 he's born Poplar, Middlesex, now a Master Chimney Sweep - you're in good company Sandra, hubby's g grandad was one.

Back then, many people stuck to the same occupation all their life. However like us, it is quite possible to change jobs, so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the occupation.
I had a relative who was a servant, then schoolmaster living in the schoolhouse and ended up being a sunday school teacher.
Ten years ago I was a warehouse operative and now I am a civil servant, working for the passport service, issuing passports. Completely different. That should keep them thinking in 100 years.
As I said before, the folk on here are wonderful and hopefully will find out further info for you.

Cheryl

Thanks for info on Smiths I have been reading up on Wikepedia about them.
How important is it for me to locate a Thomas Wilson who was a Smith eg in the 1841 Census there is one who had a son named George, but this Thomas has Ind. for his occupation. Could he be the right one although he isn't a Smith?
Am I just hung up on the occupation? How relevant is it on a marriage certificate?
I just can't think of the words this afternoon to express myself proprely.
Shouldbe out painting the fence.
Thank-you all
Sandra

I think Whitesmith and tinsmith are the same.

Kath. x

Sandy,
As you said you are new to this. The people on here are amazing. They all helped me no end.

In less than an hour I had found that my mum in law had a brother and sister by her mum, but different dads that she did not know about. They are both still living and they know nothing of each other as the mum had children with different men , then left them with their dads and moved on to the next. We are still wondering if to get in touch or to let sleeping dogs lie.
It won't be long, I am sure before you have lots of info.
good luck
Cheryl

Hi again thanks for suggestions.
My first time on here.
What was a Whitesmith was that a Silver Smith? They were not well off.
They lived in Shoreditch Hackney.
Thomas rhe father was the Smith & George the son (my Great Grandfather the Chimney Sweep
On one of the census George gives his birthplace as Poplar.On the 1871 census they come up as Welson.
I don't know anything about Thomas my GG x2 Father
I am 70 yrs old & have only known for 6months that this was my birth family so any info I get thrills me
Thank-you all again,
Sandy