Genealogy Chat

Hi all,

A cousin has come up with a possible lead of an ancestor born in India, called Byrne. Searching finds a match for a man working as a labourer in Manchester in the 1901 census.

I have two problems, firstly how to chase that up, secondly how did he come to be born in India yet end up as a labourer? I could understand a British army officer having his family in India, but if that were the case I don't see how his son would end up as a labourer.. Any ideas? TIA

If I've got the right chap in 1901,this looks like his birth :
Births , GRO REGIMENTAL BIRTH INDICES (1761 to 1924) 1761 - 1924
Byrne Thomas H Place:Fyzabad Year1873 Regt. 51st Vol.847 Page:10

You can order the certificate from the GRO.

Maureen

Bernard


not only British army officers had their wives and family in India at that period in time.


NCOs would also have had their wives and families out there, and there were also ordinary soldiers who had either wives or women and children



so your Byrne may have been the son of an ordinary soldier



or possibly the son of an officer who fell on hard times!




sylvia

This might be Thomas H Byrne and Mary's marriage, it's from www.lancsbmd.org.uk .......... and you can order the certificate from them


Getting the certificate would tell you the father's name, and possibly his rank.


BYRNE Thomas H GARRON Mary A Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/147/20


It is also on www.freebmd.org.uk ............................ but the lancs site gives the actual spouse


Marriages Mar 1900 (>99%)

Byrne Thomas Henry Manchester 8d 282
Garron Mary Ann Manchester 8d 282





His father could also have worked for the British army as well ......... taking care of horses, etc


sylvia

The 1881 Census did not show anyhting on ancestry ....... I'll go searching in a moment!


This came up on familysearch.org

If it is your Thomas, then father was a government employee, not a soldier



1881 Census

Thomas BYRNE Head M Male 42 Dublin, Ireland Pensioner Govn Employ
Martha BYRNE Wife M Female 37 Kelniarden, Ireland
Mary E. BYRNE Daur Female 9 Athlone, Ireland Scholar
Thomas H. BYRNE Son Male 8 Tyzabad Bombay, East Indies Scholar
Harriett BYRNE Daur Female 5 Tyzabad Bombay, East Indies Scholar
John BYRNE Son Male 1 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Catherine W. BYRNE Daur Female 1 Manchester, Lancashire, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling Wakefield Rd 13 Cleaves Row
Census Place Pontefract, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342108
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4589 / 58
Page Number 43





sylvia

Here is the ancestry version ....... which I had to really play around with becasue it wouldn't come up.

I finally used byr* 1873 +/- 5

1881 Census

Name: Thomas H. Byrne
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Tyzabad Bombay, East Indies

Civil parish: Pontefract
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: Wakefield Rd 13 Cleaves Row

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Pontefract
Sub-registration district: Pontefract

Thomas Byrne 42 b.ca 1839, Dublin, Pensioner Govn Employ
Martha Byrne 37
Mary E. Byrne 9
Thomas H. Byrne 8
Harriett Byrne 5
John Byrne 1
Catherine W. Byrne 1



sylvia

By 1891, Martha is widowed and living in Manchester with the twins John and Catherine




sylvia

OOOH! Well done,Sylvia!

Maureen

Many thanks to Sylvia and Maureen for this work! I'm just a newbie and I'm losing a lot of sleep digging and digging. I must confess to being completely ignorant of who was deployed in India and why.

It looks as if Thomas H Byrne may well be my great-grandfather. From the limited access to the 1911 census, it appears that in 1911 he has two others living with him, Elizabeth (grandmother) and Thomas (great-uncle), which would fit just nicely. I'll probably cave in before the weekend's out and sign up for full access to the 1911 census since my wife will doubtless need it too.

This really is compulsive, isn't it?

Bernard


It does become obsessive!!


But think very carefully about where you sign up for the 1911 Census

You have two options

1. Join www.findmypast.com, then pay the extra subscription to access 1911 through them. I am reliably told that the search engine they use is NOT as good as the next option .................. but the cost of looking at the 1911 transcripts and census images works out cheaper if you have a lot of records to look up. They allow a certain number of lookups a month ..... I think it is something like 5000

2. Sign up with the official 1911 site www.fmpbsol.1911census.co.uk/ It is free to sign up, and you can search for free on there. There are various tricky ways of finding out who is living in a particular household for free ....... but you have to buy credits to look at the actual transcript and census image.

Many people are using the second site to search , but having a subscription on findmypast to do the transcript and census image.

The other advantage that I like on the second option is that the 1911 site saves any and all records that you do pay to look at on that site.


The findmypast site does not .................. you have to download all transcripts and images to your own computer. Every record that you have looked at on findmypast is removed from their memory once you exit the site. This means that you have to again use your subscription to re-look at any records.


This is not too important, unless a) you do not want to save all images to your own computer, or b) you have looked at a record, decided it is not yours, but then want to re-check it some months later.



sylvia

1911 census transcription details for: 9 Norbury St Gaylor St M/r

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN24145 RG78PN1387 RD466 SD3 ED12 SN188


Reg. District: Manchester Sub District: St George
Parish: Manchester Enum. District: 12
Address: 9 Norbury St Gaylor St M/r
County: Lancashire
BYRNE, Thomas Henry Head Married M 38 1873 Paviors Beater Bombay India Resident
BYRNE, Mary Ann Wife Married
11 years F 36 1875 Lanc Stockport
BYRNE, Mary Daughter F 10 1901 School Lanc Manchester
BYRNE, Elizabeth Daughter F 8 1903 School Lanc Manchester
BYRNE, Agnes Daughter F 6 1905 School Lanc Manchester
BYRNE, Ann Daughter F 4 1907 Lanc Manchester
BYRNE, Thomas Son M 2 1909 Lanc Manchester
BYRNE, Hilda Daughter F 0 (5 WEEKS) 1911 Lanc Manchester
CONNOR, George Boarder Widower M 61 1850 Overmantel Maker Lanc Manchester


Maureen


Edit: Or just ask one of us for a look up. With this family-Ireland/India/England-I'd wait a bit and see what you really need access to.
Unless you're flush with cash. grin

Maureen

Bernard my grandfather and his brother were born in India their father was a private soldier in the 108th Madras regiment
the 1901/1911 census shows my grandad as a labourer and as being a British subject born in India . The actual family were Irish

Hi Maureen and Sylvia, I can't thank you enough for what you've done - it really is pure gold. It more than justifies a visit to Manchester Register Office tomorrow with a shopping list. I also have an appointment at the Manchester Police Museum Archive to chase up another relative - police officer, not criminal. :)

Now, I think I have a real challenge on my hands. I have before me an old photograph. It's of my grandfather Hugh Scanlan, born in Ireland (believed to be Sligo) around 1875. He could be around 25 in the picture. He has a wife (unnamed) and four children pictured. Names are Bessie, Sarah, Hugh and Michael. Older girl looks about 6, older boy 4, younger girl 3, younger boy is a babe in arms. At some point, he moved to Glasgow, I don't know if some or all of the children were born in Ireland.

His wife died of TB and he re-married, his first cousin (!!) Mary Ellen, some time in the 1920s.

Hi Bren, my thoughts must've been coloured by watching "It Ain't Half Hot Mum" all those years ago! I just didn't realise how many entire families were out there at the time.

BTW, just up the road from you in Rochdale.

Hi Bernard


and I was born and grew up in Oldham!


but I've been away for many many years




sylvia

Not sure I can help you with Hugh Scanlan


You might want to go to Scotlands People (google for the wbsite address), and see if you can find anything on there


sylvia

n

Any chance you have the famous Hugh Scanlon in your tree? The communist trade union leader, born in Australia of English parents, brought back to Manchester aged two?

Worth investigating a connection?