Genealogy Chat

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Following Ann's help I could now write a book about this family.

Unfortunately a fellow researcher has thrown a spanner in the works, having found 3 other children born to Joseph Royle and Rachel Brazier at appropriate times, thereby sort of scotching my theory that my Rachel's father was Joshua and he only had one child in Macclesfield before being sent south.

However, to answer your question, the 5 children were Joshua married Laura Peyton, Mary married T G Shaw, Thomas married Jane Russell and Clara Sophia married Samuel Partner. Another son John appears to have died before 1841 and I have found no marriage for him.

I don't know why Joshua went particularly to Croydon, or whether the family previously had property there, but his father and siblings had connections with a lot of wealthy families who I have not tried to trace.

The death duty record only gave information re the division of the estate and the fact that apart from that transferred to the spouse, the rest was taxed at 10%.

The mystery re Joshua's poor marriage and banishment remains, but it is now looking more likely that I am not related to him.

Pity, but better to have the truth.

Margaret

What were the names of the 5 children and when and where were they born? Think I only found announcements for 3 marraiges??

Did John Ryle have property in Croydon? Just wondering why Joshua ended up there.

Does the Death Duty record give any later info rather than just the immediate inheritance information?

Hi Ann

Quick summary:

Facts. Joshua Ryle b 1785 son of John and Mary, Macclesfield. Inherits a sizeable sum of money on father's death in October 1808, though elder brother inherits the bulk. Arrives in Croydon with a "wife" Jane(t), 5 children married into wealthy families. Joshua owns property and land. He is witness to his sister's marriage to Francis Sacheverel Darwin 1815. Janet dies 1821, Joshua 1828, buried together in Croydon. Obituary of Jane implies a well respected lady.

A Joshua Royle married Jannot Farrish, Dec 1808, Manchester, a cabinet maker.

A Rachel Royle is born 1812 Macclesfield, parents Josh. and Rachel. No other children found to this couple.

Family rumour - Joshua was disowned by the family for marrying beneath him.

Assumptions.
1. The Joshua who marries Jannot Farrish is not the son of John Ryle - not a cabinet maker. Other Joshuas in Manchester of the right age.
2. The Jane/Janet regarded as Joshua's wife was not the cause of him being disowned. Something else was, if the family rumour is to be believed.
3. Rachel Royle b 1812 is the legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Joshua son of John, and the cause of him being disowned.

I have run out of ideas.

Margaret

Glad you've managed to work it out! Wow,what a huge sum of money.
Now where do we go from here??!!

Hi Ann

Following on from my excitement at you finding the death duties record, I have now read it without a glass of wine in my hand and realise that Joshua did inherit today's equivalent of about half a million pounds, as did his sisters. His mother inherited about £2.5m and his brother John about £3.5m. So although half a million was "small fry" in comparison to John, it was still substantial (pre- footballers, film stars and Tiger Woods), and it might have been the way of the world then for the eldest son to inherit the bulk (as I believe it was), while the rest of the family were simply well-provided for. As they were. Including Joshua.

Surrey FHS have confirmed the headstone of Joshua and Janet, just names and dates, and the church have told me the headstone was removed many years ago and laid flat to form a pathway, and is now worn away.

A book entitled "Croydon Past" (found it) had Janet's death as 1828, but Surrey FHS have told me this is wrong, it should be 1821.

I could now write a book on "The disowned Ryle of Macclesfield".

Margaret

Ann

No I don't have any proof of Jannot Farrish, in fact doubts about it. I am 100% certain that the death duties record you have found is the right family.

I have downloaded it, so will need your email address to send a scan.

I am so grateful for your help.

Margaret

I hadn't even realised that those early Death Duty registers were on the documentsonline site. I've looked at Death Duty registers before but only at Kew. Just happened to notice it today.

I haven't downloaded it as you have to pay but perhaps you scan and send it to me?

But then you don't know that the Jannot marriage is the right one, do you?

Hi Ann

Sorry if I have not explained before. Jane Harriet Ryle is the main reason for the importance of this research. She is John Ryle's youngest daughter, b 1794, and sister of Joshua, the disinherited brother. She married Francis Sacheverel Darwin, I forget the connection, but a close relative of Charles R Darwin, and numerous other famous people like Josiah Wedgwood of pottery fame, and Ralph Vaughan Williams, the musician.

So all of this research is attempting to lead to the fact (?) that Joshua Ryle is the father of my husband's ggg grandmother, Rachel Ryle. And that it was that marriage, or Rachel's birth, that caused him to be ostracised by the family.

The record you have just found is October 1808, which is before the marriage of Joshua to Jannot Farrish, so cannot have been the reason for him being ostracised.

Do you see my point?

I will be eternally grateful for your help so far, you have been fantastic.

Margaret

Bloody Hell Ann, you are a star!

Why didn't I find it? Not used to these resources. Tell me how you found it please?

That is him.

What do you think? John Ryle Administrator, or John, Mary and Joshua? Not sure of the rules back then, but nowadays you cannot be Administrator if you are a beneficiary (I think?). Perhaps that is rubbish.

2 daughters under age (18) is right. There seems to be a daughter Martha not mentioned, not sure why, perhaps she died. And not sure why Harriet (Jane Harriet?)'s share is included with that of "The Administrator" as she too was underage (14).

Do you think the £74,000 odd to Administrator is to John?

So nothing it seems to Joshua, despite him being an Administrator.

Wow, thanks so much. This is serious research for me!

See my next post.

Margaret

Who was Jane Harriet?

Hi Ann and anyone else with anything to add.

The importance of this family to me is that Joshua's sister married into the Darwin family, of Charles Darwin fame (and others). Of course I've still to prove he is the father of "my" Rachel.

Just discovered that Joshua was a witness at the marriage of Jane Harriet Ryle to Sir Francis Sacheveral Darwin MD (I already knew she married him), at St George's Church, Hanover Square, London in 1815. Now you don't get to witness a marriage like that if your family have disowned you - do you? I assume it would have been a very high profile wedding.

Margaret

Another find - John Ryle in 1808

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7462687&queryType=1&resultcount=1

Oh, I would have expected her to have something very ornate - what a shame!

Thanks again Ann, seems we are chasing the same things, I found the West Surrey FHS with the fiche, but you can email them for a specific search, so have done that. But I found something else (somewhere!) that indicated that the inscription was just very simple, name, year and age.

FMP has just Janet and Joshua listed.

Margaret

Answering my own question! There seems to be a fiche for sale here

http://www.genfair.co.uk/product_list.php?sid=39&page=22363

Have any MI's been recorded for this cemetery do you know?

Found them now, must have done something wrong.

Burials Janet 1/3/1821, Joshua 21/5/1828, St John the Baptist, Croydon.

Margaret

To find the 3 marraiges, just put the surname into the search box for the 19th Century newspapers database on the library site.

I noted the details down, so let me know if you need them.

Think I found Janes death on Google books in the end! I would imagine there'd be a gravestone for her, wherever she was buried! Perhaps that would give some of her family info?

I'm still not good at this, can't find the 3 marriages I found yesterday.

How did you find Jane's death? It is correct, and I found it elsewhere, 23 Feb 1821. From the short obituary it certainly doesn't look as though she was the cause of Joshua being disowned - "she was the object of esteem and regard to her numerous friends and relatives".

Also Joshua's death found, 14 May 1828.

And lots of articles re John Ryle's bankruptcy etc.

Margaret

Another little snippet - Jane, wife of Joshua Ryle esq, died age 35 in Croydon in 1821

http://www.archive.org/stream/monthlymagazineo51lond#page/290/mode/2up