Genealogy Chat

Hi All :-)

I am so tired and am heading of to bed – but I am excited by what I just found.

James Lee b:c1811 a Baker born in Berdmondsey Surrey his wife Ann Lee b:c1815 in Alton Hampshire.
There Children as follows.
James Lee b:c1835 – Southwark Surrey
Mary Ann Lee b:c1838 – Southwark Surrey
Charles Lee b:c1848 – Newington Surrey

I think the 1871 census which has Ann widowed and age wrong should be written as Abt 56 years of age [and born in Alton Hampshire and not Halton Hampshire]. And [as I thought – and has been pointed out] Charles & Sarah are a married couple and not siblings – Edward Lee was there son.

The challenge now is to find them in the 1861 census - any takers in seeking them out ;-)

Below are them in the 1841 & 1851 censuses.

I would love others opinions – I am so tired it is near 2:30am in the morning here – but I’m happy it looks to be them [?]

Cheers – Steve.



............................................................................................................
1851 Census

Name: James Lees
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Bemondsey, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: Walworth St Peter
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:
View image


Registration district: Newington
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page

Household schedule number: 260
Household Members: Name Age
James Lees b:c1810 - Bermondsey
41
Ann Lees b:c1815 – Alton - Hampshire
36
James Lees – b:c1835 - Southwark
16
Mary Ann Lees b:c1838 - Southwark
13
Charles Lees b:c1848 - Newington
3

...............................................................................................................
1841 Census

1841 England Census about James Lee
Name: James Lee
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil parish: St George The Martyr
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:
View image


Registration district: St George the Martyr Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members: Name Age
James lee b:c1811 - Baker
Ann Lee b:c1816
James Lee b:c1835
Mary Lee b:c1838

..........................................................................................................................

Hi Heather :-)

Below are the Census information for 2 families.

The first 2 are the 1861 & 1871 census.
Father as John - Mother as Ann - Ann is born in Hunton Hampshire [in both census takings]....yes there is a son Charles & daughter Sarah - but they are also accounted for in the *1871 census.

The last census is also for *1871 - Ann Lee born in Halton Hampshire - son Charles & daughter Sarah grandson Edward Lee as a child.

They are seperate families - The first Lee family of 1861 I agree look they are the likeliest to be mine....but void themselves out with being in the 1871 census - so mine are still unaccounted for in 1861 and earlier :-(
........................................................................................................................
1st Lee Family 1861 Census.


1861 England Census about Ann Lee
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:
View image


Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page

Household schedule number: 172
Household Members: Name Age
John Lee – b:c1821 – Sittingbourne - Kent
40
Ann Lee – b:c1819 – Hunton - Hampshire
42
Charles Lee - b:c1849 – Brixton.
12
Sarah Lee - b:c1856 – Brixton.
5
Emma Lee – b:c1860 – Brixton.
1



First Lee Family 1871 Census.

1871 England Census about Charles Lee
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee b:c1818 – Hunton – Hampshire.
53
Charles Lee – b:c1848 – Brixton.
23
Emma Lee – b:c1860 – Brixton.
11
Rosa Nath – b:c1853 – Brixton.
18


.......................................................................................................................

Second Lee Family 1871 Census.
'Mine'.

1871 England Census about Ann Lee
Name: Ann Lee
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Halton, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee b:c1845 [?] – Halton – Hampshire.
26
Charles Lee – b:c1849 – Newington – Surrey.
22
* Edward Lee b:c1870 – Newington – Surrey.
1
Sarah Lee – b:c1848 – Newington – Surrey.
23

.........................................................................................................................

Hopefully I have explained myself clearer - It gets confusing ;-)

Cheers - Steve.

Still dont follow Steve, as the 1871 ann is from hants, as is the ann in the 1861 - the other 1871 ann is from Brixton.

Hi Steve.
Interesting that your mum recalls being at the gypsy site when she was young. So it look like a possibility.
You asked about gypsies changing names. I know there were Smith gypsies who used the middle name Lee.
Looking for a Smith would be a bigger nightmare.

Did you do advanced search on GR as I suggested entering gypsy traveller. Another member Cheryl is tracing her LEE gypsy family

Google
Was Your Ancestor A Gypsy

Go to 1881 census and enter LEE hawker.

Hi All :-)

Of to bed here in Aus....It was near 3am when I got to bed last night [Oh dear].

I have just been reading a few other posts in regards to manners etc and that short answers can seem of the cuff - coming across as rude.

Please - To all who have replied to this thread during the past few days I am more than thankful you have taken the time and effort in helping me - I appreciate it immensly - anything is possible with Family Trees and sometimes requires incredible lateral thinking. The Lee family started to blur for me and any thoughts most welcome for any information I just may have missed or overlooked. All avenues a possibility ;-)

Good Night zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Cheers - Steve Campbell.

Hi Heather :-)

It gets a little confusing....I go cross eyed with it - It isn't an age thing at all.

The 1871 Census that corresponds with the 1861 Census is for a seperate family - whilst all the information regarding Ann matches I totally agree - but the biggest fact is that Edward Lee should be present as a baby. Edward writes he was born in Walworth.

Comparing the families in the 1871 Census as follows ->


1871 England Census.
Civil Parish: St Mary Newington.
Ecc Parish: All Saints.
County/Island: London.
Country: England.
Reg District: St Saviour Southwark.
Sub Reg District: St Peter Walworth.
Address: 14 Little Park Road.
Household Members:
Ann Lee aged 26 [?] - Head - Widow - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Hants [Hampshire] Halton.
Charles Lee aged 22 - Son - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Surrey Newington.
* Edward Lee aged 1- Grand Son - Born: Newington - Surrey - London.
Sarah Lee aged 23 - Daughter [?] - Occupation: Charwoman - Born: Surrey Newington.



1871 England Census
about Charles Lee
Name: Charles Lee
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee 53
Charles Lee 23
Emma Lee 11
Rosa Nath 18

Indeed Edward more than likely was gilding the lily when he wrote his father was a Stonemason - as you say it is a very skilled job and would have required an apprenticeship.

Cheers - Steve.

Sorry, I must be getting old or sillier but the 1871 you give fits fine with the 1861 I gave didnt it? How many Ann Lees living in Newington were born in Hunton, Hants? And the two children, Charles and Sarah match with your 1871 ??

Going on from the wedding cert and Charles being a stonemason?? That was a very skilled job requiring an apprenticeship. May be his job was enhanced a bit by Edward?

Hi Quinsgran :-)

I spoke to my Mum earlier today and would you believe she can remember running through the Gypsy Caravan section of Manchester’s Wythenshawe Estate as a child [early 1940s]. Her Mum Hannah Lee loved buying lots of trinkets from the Gypsies. Hannah I know read tea leaves for guests. Wonder if this was an influence from her paternal side??

Thank you for the web suggestions – It’s all grist for the Mill – But I must say I am fascinated that this may be a possibility. I have read that some Gypsy Families changed there surnames….did the Surname of Lee at any time change? Could this be why I am finding it hard to locate them with more substantial information? I am still interested to hearing others thoughts on the Census takings for Edward and his family…I am more than sure it is them in the 1871 census…..but where were they in 1861 census [?] and where did they vanish [?] leaving Edward on his own…..any one out there willing to try and find Charles and Ann in the 1861 Census – the above posts are a guide line….any questions just ask…..Its a mystery all right.

Cheers – Steve Campbell ;-)

There has been many discussions about gypsy travellers on GR . If you do an advanced search and put Gypsy in it comes up with all previous threads.

You can also google Bill Lee's travellers tales

Nudge for me :-)

Hi :-)

Oh dear that will teach me to go into edit mode....I saw a typo - went to change it and the end part of my message [beginning of page 2] vanished - The end of the 1901 Census is the following ->

Emily Lee aged 17 - Daughter - Single - Occupation: Box Maker [Worker] - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Florence Victoria Lee aged 13 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Ethel Lee aged 11 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Hannah Lee aged 10 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Mary Lee aged 6 - Daughter - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Doris Lee aged 1 - Daughter - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Signed: Edward Lee.
Postal Address: 26 Hayfield Street - Ardwick.

Thoughts.

Cheers - Steve Campbell.

Hi Quinsgran :-)

Thank you for your thoughts.

It hadn't crossed my mind that Edward Lee may have had a gypsy background. His profession as a Basket Maker was as a Skip & basket Maker - not as I thought of as weaving baskets. My cousin enlightened me that it was a more industrial job that he probably learnt during his time at the Industrial School. Indeed he may have been a naughty boy and this is why he ended up there in 1881....the authorities had clamped down on wayward kids and parents not being law abiding and making sure they were in school.

The Lee family [that mostly stare back at me in very old photographs] - had olive skin - which is unusual - jet black hair....my older brother is the spitting image of Edward Lee. We possess one lovely photograph of him circa 1890. Tall - thin - dressed to the nines - but we believe it was a twin photo celebrating his marriage to Emily...sadly no similar photo exists of Emily during this time period.

I have skimmed over Gypsy backgrounds in the past....is there any good site on the web that I may be able to get a better understanding of there background....anything is a possibility I guess.

Cheers - Steve Campbell.

Hi Steve.

Edward Lee occupation on his marriage cert basket maker suggests he was a gypsy.

Lee is gypsy name. His father occ given as stonemason. As you say he was probably taking liberties
I wonder if Edward got himself into a bit of bother so they put him into the Industrial school
His daughter Beatrice born c1891 Birmingham seems to be missing in 1901.death in 1892 Chorlton district

Hi All :-)

I think I should have explained myself better. In hindsight it was getting late when I added the original posting & looking at it today I feel I will expand on the information as it allows for greater understanding of what I am seeking.

Below is Edward Lee within all the Census taking from 1871 – 1911 [There are minor mistakes within the originals and I have rectified them for consistency e.g: Edward & Emily’s ‘first born child - daughter Beatrice is written as 48 years of age and logically was in fact 4 months – sadly she died the following year].

Heather. The reason why I dismissed the other LEE family is that Edward Lee was missing from the household. I totally agree that the family look to be the one. But the 1871 Census has no Edward present – this is why the below 1871 Census is the most likely…..unless anyone can find another?

Peter. I thought that this may also be possible – Charles & Sarah were in fact a couple and not siblings….it makes better sense and yes the enumerator stuffed up with Ann’s age dramatically…..the added mystery is where is this family [Ann & Charles] in the1851 & 1861 Census taking???

Edward Lee appears to be shoved into the Manchester Certified Industrial School in 1881 – Why and Where did his family suddenly vanish???

*1871 England Census.
Civil Parish: St Mary Newington.
Ecc Parish: All Saints.
County/Island: London.
Country: England.
Reg District: St Saviour Southwark.
Sub Reg District: St Peter Walworth.
Address: 14 Little Park Road.
Household Members:
Ann Lee aged 26 [?] - Head - Widow - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Hants [Hampshire] Halton.
Charles Lee aged 22 - Son - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Surrey Newington.
Edward Lee aged 1- Grand Son - Born: Newington - Surrey - London.
Sarah Lee aged 23 - Daughter [?] - Occupation: Charwoman - Born: Surrey Newington.

*1881 England Census.
Civil Parish: Ardwick.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Institution/Address: Manchester Certified Industrial School.
Edward Lee aged 13 - Born: London - Surrey.

The following is the Marriage Details of Edward Lee & Emily Oliver in 1889.

*1889 Marriage Solminized at 'The Register Office' in the 'District' of 'Kings Norton' in the counties of ' Birmingham, Worcester, Warwick and Stafford'.
No: 200.
When Married: Fourteenth December 1889.
Name & Surname: Edward Lee aged 21 years of age - Condition: Bachelor - Occupation: Basket Maker - Residence at Time of Marriage: 177 Balsall Heath Road - Balsall Heath.
Father's Name & Surname: Charles Lee - Occupation: Stonemason.
Name & Surname: Emily Oliver aged 20 years of age [Note: Should be Written as Abt 17] - Condition: Spinster - Occupation: Mantle Maker - Residence at Time of Marriage: 177 Balsall Heath Road - Balsall Heath.
Father's Name & Surname: Mark Oliver - Occupation: Wheelright's Smith.
This Marriage was solemnized between us: Signed: Edward Lee & Emily Oliver.
Witnesses: Signed: George Cooke and Jane Cooke.
Married in the 'Register Office' by 'Certificate before me' - Signed: George Johns: Registrar.
Signed: George Theodore Newbury - Deputy Superintendent Registrar.



*1891 England Census.
Civil Parish: Gorton.
Ecc Parish: St Mark.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Address: 10 Albert Place.
Household Members:
Mark Oliver aged 53 - Head - Occupation: Coach Smith - Born: Darlington Durham.
Sarah Oliver aged 46 - Wife - Born: Cheshire Wilmslow
Mark Oliver aged 22 - Son.
Joseph Oliver aged 10 - Son.
Edmund Samuel Bray Oliver [E T Oliver] aged 7 - Son.
Edward Lee aged 21- Son-in-Law - Occupation: Basket Maker - Born: London.
Emily Lee aged 20 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Ardwick.
Beatrice Lee aged 4 Months - Grand Daughter - Born: Warwickshire Birmingham.

1901 England Census.
Civil Parish: South Manchester.
Ecc Parish: Gorton St Mark.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Address: 5 Thomas Street.
Household Members:
Edward Lee aged 34 - Head - Occupation: Skip & Basket Maker - Born: London.
Emily Lee aged 29 - Wife - Born: Lancashire Manchester
Emily Lee aged 7 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Florence V. Lee aged 3 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Ethel Lee aged 1 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Hannah Lee aged 3 Months - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.


*1911 England Census.
Address: 26 Hayfield Street - Chorlton - Ardwick - South Manchester.
Household Members:
Edward Lee - aged 42 - Head - Occupation:Basket Maker [Worker] - Born: London Walworth.
Emily Lee aged 39 - Wife - Born: Pendleton Lancashire.
[Edward & Emily had been married for 21 years - have had 11 children - 6 living - 5 had died].
Emily Lee aged 17 - Daughter - Single - Occupation: Box Maker [Worker] - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Florence Victoria

Hi Steve

Suppose the Sarah Lee (23) is the wife of Charles - not the daughter of Ann.
(Charles Duncan Lee married Sarah Jane Bradshaw (they are on the same page anyway) Greenwich 1868.

That then leaves you with Ann in 1871 with her age wrong - could have been an error when the enumerator transcribed his notes.

Do you have her in 1881??

Peter

Cant really see why it would make it the wrong lot? Charles and Sarah are the right ages for the kids in the 1871. Ann is right name and born right place?

May be Im missing something, which wouldnt surprise me :)

Hi All :-)

It is getting very very late here [2:21am] and bed is calling me - YAWN.

Big thank you for your help Heather - Polly & Alan -> most appreciated.

Any further thoughts or suggestions most welcome. I will have a look-see at this thread after a good nights sleep - till then ;-)

Cheers - Steve - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hi Heather :-)

That is the certificate I ordered a few weeks back.

Edward Lee b:13th September 1868 at 9 Kings Arch Place.
Father: James Lee - Baker Journeyman.
Mother: Eliza Lee formerly Jefferies.

Edward Lee has been the main brick wall in my family tree - He still has us just as perplexed as the day we started seeking him out about 6 odd years back

Cheers - Steve.

Hi Heather :-)

Thanks Heather. I thought the same when I struck upon them in the census - but the below entry for the same family for 1871 makes them the wrong family :-(

1871 England Census
about Charles Lee
Name: Charles Lee
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee 53
Charles Lee 23
Emma Lee 11
Rosa Nath 18


View
Original
Record

View original image

.........................................................................................................................

No success with finding him in the BMD'S - the closest one I ordered a few weeks back and it turned out to be wrong :-(

Cheers - Steve.

Have you seen the above census info? Ann born Hants 1819

So you dont have Edwards birth cert for his mothers name?

This looks like the only one born Newington right year:

Births Dec 1868

LEE Edward Newington 1d 215

You could buy the cert specifying fathers name Charles.

Looks like the marriage of John Lee and Ann:

Marriages Dec 1847
Case Robert Lambeth 4 263
Crowe Jane Edith Lambeth 4 263
HAMPSON Francis Lambeth 4 263
>>>LEE John Lambeth 4 263
>>>MUNDY Ann Lambeth 4 263
ROYLE Alice Susannah Lambeth 4 263
SEAGER Mary Ann Lambeth 4 263 Scan available - click to view
SMITH William Lambeth 4 263