Genealogy Chat

thankyou all very much for your help i now know were to go next so can crack on without thinking theyve all been "beamed up from where?"

thanks again sue

Susan,

I think we can say with a good degree of certainty that they are the same people.

We know that Ellen Dungey married Ebenezer Curtis before she met James Munday. We know they never divorced because he's listed as illegally married.

Rose

Susan has mistakenly started a new thread -

This is what she has posted on it - (just in case she doesn't manage to get back to this one)

'hi everyone posted last week about birth for walter daniel curtis and you all came up with a scenario why i couldnt find a birth and put me on the path of munday as a surname,i now have the cert details as follows;
11 may 1873 lion house newington
name; walter daniel;
boy. father; james munday, mother ellen munday formely dungey occupation of father; farm labourer, informant; ellen munday mother lion house newington, registered 21st june1873, so where please do i go from here, how can i be sure that this is the same person as walter daniel curtis i would appreciate a point in the right direction as how to find out what happened to their mother? and try to explain how they ended up being put in the workhouse under curtis, there is no explanation on the admittance sheet from the workhouse records..best regards sue'

nudging up for susan now she has the birth cert!

Let us know when the cert arrives on here.

You have more siblings for Walter now and some half siblings to trace also. Ellen must have been very young when she married Ebenezer.

Rose

Susan, I think we all find surprising information about what stock we come from. Certainly unmarried mums are nothing new and in Victorian times (and earlier) many brides were already pregnant when they went to the altar - possibly for a shotgun wedding. The closest thing in my family that I've found so far is with my 2x gt-g'parents; they got married on Boxing Day and my gt-g'father was born on 18th Jan!

thankyou thankyou all so much, i have been trying for two years to get round this and you all seem to have done it in 2 hours. no wonder i couldnt find them when its all so mixed up, thanks goodness my mum isnt around to read this, she was such a lady and would have been mortified to think there were unmaried mums about haha.
it now feels as if im not from the stock i thought, strange feeling but thanks all once again, i will order the cert straight away

kind regards sue

Not sure why their names changed. They were registered as Mundays even though Ellen and James weren't married.

Next step should be the order Walter's birth cert.

Rose

gosh everyone how did you come up with all this info im staggered! trying to get my head around this are they munday or curtis.
Walter is on the 1901 census on board a ship "the blake"
he to was taken to grays to do training and from there was brought up to grimsby(where i am) and indentured this info i have.

Yes i have his marriage cert he married alice here in grimsby and there is no fathers name on cert

thanks again sue

Ebenezer in 1871with new "wife". It does say illegally married on the image:

1871 England Census
about Ebenezer Curtiss
Name: Ebenezer Curtiss
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Biddenden, Kent, England
Civil parish: Biddenden
Ecclesiastical parish: Canterbury
Town: Biddenden
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Tenterden
Sub-registration district: Rolvenden
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 56
Household Members: Name Age
Ebenezer Curtiss 38
Ann Chapman 32
Annie Curtiss 16
Mary C Chapman 5
Sarah Curtiss Chapman 3
Emily Curtiss Chapman 1

Rose

This one's missing his wife in 1861:

1861 England Census
about Ebenezer Curties
Name: Ebenezer Curties
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Biddenden, Kent, England

Civil parish: Biddenden
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Tenterden
Sub-registration district: Rolvenden
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Ebenezer Curties 28
Elizabeth Curties 8
James Curties 6
Ann Curties 4
Sarah Batt 19 Housekeeper.

Rose

Looking at Ellen's born Cranbrook c1837 who married a Curtis:

Marriages Sep 1852
CURTIS Ebenezer Cranbrook 2a 656
Dungey Ellen Cranbrook 2a 656

Rose

Here's the link. James never married Ellen because she was already married. She is listed as married here and he is single.


1861 England Census
about James Munday
Name: James Munday
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Head
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Tenterden, Kent, England
Civil parish: Biddenden
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Tenterden
Sub-registration district: Rolvenden
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
James Munday 26 Single
Ellen Curties 24 Housekeeper married.
Sarah Curties 2 Boarder
John H Curties 8 Mo Boarder
Daniel Munday 67 Father
Mary Munday 74 Mother

Rose

Looking at these other Munday births in Milton leads me to this family:

Births Sep 1864
MUNDAY Rosina Milton 2a 645

Births Jun 1866
Munday William Milton 2a 677

Births Sep 1869
MUNDAY Phebe Milton 2a 737



1871 England Census
about James Monday
Name: James Monday
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Tenterden, Kent, England
Civil parish: Newington
Town: Newington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Milton
Sub-registration district: Milton
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Household schedule number: 98
Household Members:
Name Age
James Monday 38
Ellen Monday 34 Cranbrook
Sarah Monday 12 Biddenden
John H Monday 11 Biddenden
George Monday 9 Emly
Rosa Monday 7
William Monday 5
Ellen Monday 4
Phoeby Monday 2
Edwin Monday 6 weeks

Rose

But he's missing in 1901:

1901 England Census
about Alice Curtis
Name: Alice Curtis
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Boston, Lincolnshire, England
Civil parish: Clee
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Registration district: Grimsby
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: 45
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 210
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Curtis 29
Emma Stead 18

Rose

He's on the 1911 census:

Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District
HOUSEHOLD CURTIS ALICE F 1872 39 Grimsby Lincolnshire
HOUSEHOLD CURTIS CYRIL M 1906 5 Grimsby Lincolnshire
HOUSEHOLD CURTIS LILY F 1907 4 Grimsby Lincolnshire
HOUSEHOLD CURTIS LUCY F 1910 1 Grimsby Lincolnshire
HOUSEHOLD CURTIS WALTER DANIAL M 1874 37 Grimsby Lincolnshire

Rose

To add to Choccy's list of Munday births.

Ellen Munday, Newington, Mar 1869.

Susan, you say you know when & where Walter Daniel married, do you have the marriage cert ?, does it give any details of the father ?.

I can't see a Munday family that ties in on the census, The Walter Daniel Munday birth does seem a good match in terms of first names, location and timing.

Possible scenario for Choccy:

Parents (married) named Munday
Father dies, mother remarries - to a Curtis
Mother then dies
Curtis leaves children at workhouse and clears off
In absence of any other name workhouse staff call them Curtis
BUT surely Ellen would be old enough to know her real surname?

Any other ideas?

And of course if the Mundays show up on other censuses that makes this one rather unlikely.