Genealogy Chat

I posted the following on chat last night and someone has pointed out I mightn be better posting it here:

My great great grandparents are buried in a big family grave in the local cemetary ~ its a 4-person grave also buried with them is their son-in-law {my great grandfather ~ who also happens to be his father-in-laws brothers son} the 4th spot remained empty til the late 70's when it appears a young girl {who no-one knows is buried there} their daughter {a staunch Catholic ~ my great grandmother} is buried in the catholic graveyard in unconsecrated ground no marker no stone ~ she died 20 years before the young girl ~ we ar trying to work out why she aint with her husband and parents when clearly there was another spot ~ was it the catholic thing, had they all fallen out or was she simply too poor to be buried even though there was a spot for her ~ has anyone any ideas? Alongside my great grandmother ar 3 babies {unchristened/unnamed} all buried on the same day ~ I feel these babies are unconnected to my great grandmother also the guide who took me to the family grave gave me the name of the man who has the papers to the grave he is my Mum’s eldest cousin incidently his name was mentioned on the death cert of the young girl in the family grave but her surname was not his

this is how far we got last night I have sent for her {my great grandmothers} deth cert to hopefully rule out suicide as more than one has suggested this to be the reason for her being buried where she has been

Has anyone else come accross a situation like this or similar?

Thank you yes she is buried within yards of the Catholic graves Im getting a sinking feeling about this my Mum's sister tells me she had a male lodger living with her at the time of her death and thinks that the church may have ex~communicated her for this reason also that she had become an heavy drinker she may be buried where she is because on death she demanded to be buried with the "catholics" has she used to call them her family may have had no option but it may be a compromise on her wishes x

Oh dear are there any vampires in England?

Glad you're getting some advice on here Mel - I thought it would be better on this board. I hope you won't be too upset when you get the DC. There is still the mystery of the babies but I'm inclined to think they were stillborn, unbaptised or illegitimate and not connected to your g grandmother. It would be interesting to know the identity of the young girl buried in the 4 person grave.

Sue

yes thanx SueMaid x although Paul had me worried x

I hope thats it Paul thanx x

SueMaid I do have the d/c for the young girl Florence she died of "fever" she was almost 20 Im not quite sure how she links to the family but I will say that the man's name given to me by the guide as the man with the paperwork is named on there as being "in attendence" so Im almost positive that she is connected to the family ~ she has a different different surname which is what through me I wondered if he were her father but am unsure and as far as the babies are concerned I agree I really don't feel they are connected to us x

When most cemeteries were designed and opened, certain parts were formally blessed by dignitaries of the Church of England, thereby consecrating the ground prior to burial. However, it was also recognised that persons from other religious denominations such as Roman Catholics, Methodist etc. would also wish to be buried in the cemeteries, therefore some areas were left unconsecrated by the Church of England.

When a burial takes place in an unconsecrated part of the cemetery, the minister representing the religious belief of the deceased will conduct a service at the graveside, thereby blessing that individual grave at the time of burial.

Mel you may be able to get Florence's birth cert. Won't make much difference but it may solve the mystery of who she is. Can't see she would be just popped into your g g grandparents' grave. I guess your g grandmother may have asked to be buried in this section of the cemetary if she was a staunch RC and not with her family on consecrated ground. How silly that rule seems although it isn't for me to judge of course.

Sue

Thats a thought SueMaid I will do that I feel almost positve Florence to be Emmanuel's {the man with the papers to the grave} daughter ~ possibly she took her mothers name not his x

It was such a beautiful day when I took Mum to visit and she's buried under a lovely tree x thanx Island its yards from the Catholic graves x

Ive visited with Mum the guide gave us as much info has they had thats how we know the ground was unconsecrated and about the babies I asked about names and details etc but the guide looked on the computer all it said was unnamed and the guide explained that unless a baby was christened even if they had been given a name they were still buried with out one sad really isnt it and he told us my great grandmother and the babies were all buried on the same day ~ it had an address of where she was brought from but nothing for them its like they were just put in there

Mel - that's just plain tosh what the guide told you about the babies in the grave I think. What was the date of the interments?

Jac xxx

Jac 1955 I havent the exact date Mum has all the notes we made but thats what he told us x there was nothing on them except that they were unnamed he told us they wouldn't have been chriestened x

Island this is turning out very interesting I asked Mum to contact her cousin and she said no ~ then she said that she had no idea where he was then she put the phone down x

edit: Mum reckons her grandmother died later but I have 1955 I will have to go over threre to look through the papers ~ also I sent for d/c for 1955

your right there Island I always tend to forget x

Just a though, maybe if your rellie was living with a man (not her husband) the R.C. Church would have her as living "in sin" so therefore not allowed be buried in Consecrated ground, i know that here in Republic of Ireland babies born and died before Baptism are kept in Morgue sp. until there are 6 babies then they are buried to-gether in unconsecrated ground in Catholic Graveyards.Years ago they were buried in the corner by a wall and parents were not allowed put any marker or headstone on grave.
Lily.

Hi Mel and all - sorry had to go out so couldn't reply earlier:

if the babies were interred in 1955 then someone would have information on those births and to whom the babies belonged. That's why I said I thought the council/cemetery guide was talking tosh.

Had the interments taken place way way back then I could understand why no information on the babies and yes, it is correct that sometimes new born babies were interred in graves with unconnected adults. Unlikely that there were three babies all "conveniently" ready for burial at the same time as this poor lady relative of Mel's though.

We are talking recent times here (although it might seem a long time ago to some - not me though - lol) Christening has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a burial is recorded or not - it's registration which is important and necessary and I cannot believe the council guide would fob anyone off with a load of tosh, as he appears to have done with Mel and her mum.

I'd be really interested to know where the cemetery is and who is responsible for it now.

Jac xxx

Years ago, when my two week old daughter died, we asked could she be buried in the childrens section, as we had one in the cemetary in the district that we came from. the undertaker said that there wasn't a special place for babies in the cemetary near us, but she could be buried with other babies,
What we didn't realise was that she would be put in what was called a public grave. It turned out that this was first for an adult pauper, and five or six stillbirths, and was sited between other gravesites and we would not be able to put a headstone over her. That would explain the multible occupation, as to the other, I think the other answers are correct.

I had a stillborn son in 1961
and he was buried with someone else ...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hug4Cutie}}}}}}}}}}}} n {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hug4Annina}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} its very hard losing babies and something we can never get over x

Jac I thought about it long and hard maybe the guide was not at liberty to say breach of confidentiality n all if they were connected it may have been different x

Thanks for hugs Medi,yes it is hard to bear, losing offspring, I also had to bury a 24 yr old son not so long ago. But at least he is near his baby sister, and we were able to mention her on his headstone.
Back to the subject of multiple burials, it occured to me , that in all the years since we buried my 2 wk old, there have never been flowers other than the ones we put there. This would bear out the theory that the other occupants are stillbirths. This is in a council cemeteryin Sheffield.

Hi Annina,

it maybe that the parents of the other stillborn babies don't know where they were buried. My twin sister was stillborn in the 1960s. The hospital dealt with all the arrangements and my parents were never told where she was buried. This has plagued me all my life until last year when reading a thread on the boards here about something similar I came across a suggestion from a member to contact the council local to the hospital where the birth took place as there should still be a record of the burial. I followed that advice myself and received a very nice email back from them containing not just her date and place of burial but also a map of the cemetery showing the plot where the grave is situated. My sisters grave is also a common grave and so no headstone or marker can be erected but at least I was able to tell my parents after forty odd years of not knowing exactly where their daughter was buried.

It's very sad, I know but that was how things were done in those days. Thank goodness things have changed for the better now.

Losing a child at whatever age is a terrible thing that no parent should have to bear. My heart goes out to you.

Caz x