Genealogy Chat

I am wondering if anyone could help to explain or answer this little puzzle? I am trying to get hold of Margaret Ann Jenkins Birth certificate, in the family bible she was born 3/05/1880. On her marriage certificate to Isaac Evans, her fathers name is Richard. I believe I found her in the 1880 census living in Penn St. Merthyr Tydfil with Lizzie M (sister), Richard (father), Gwen (mother). Lizzie M was also a witness at her wedding.
The Certificates I have tried to get from 1880 are from the June Qtr Merthyr T 11a 495 and 11a 476, these had no match. The other Certificate I tried for was from the Dec Qtr, Merthyr T 11a 381, the reason why it was not successful was that there was no father on the Certificate.
These were the only Margaret Ann Jenkins that I found in 1880. but I still can't help thinking that the one registered in Dec was the one I want.
I have also been told by relatives that Margaret had a difficult childhood, but I can't elaborate more on that , sorry.
Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction to obtain the certificate.
All help will be much appreciated.
Kind Regards

Did the certificate you thought was the right one have the correct mother's name on it? Could Margaret Ann have been born before the parent's marriage? If so she could be registered in her mother's maiden name.

Kath. x

Matching fathers on birth & subsequent marriage cert is not always fool proof.
I have a birth cert with no father, then subsequent marriage cert with a father that I can only assume was a made-up name to save face.
I assume the family bible you have is not telling you Margaret Anns' parents names?

I wonder if you could try the address as a checking reference for the birth cert, unless they moved between her birth in May 1880 and the census in April 1881.
Sam

I didn't put her Mother' s name on the extra info bit. When ordering the certificate I put the info that I thought was definate, like the fathers name and the DOB.
I am still a bit green to family research, so I don't know if Gwen was her real mother. If she had a difficult beginning in life might Gwen be her step mum!

I can't find the family in the 1881 census to check the details.

Could you look for the marriage of Richard and Gwen and see if they married before or after the birth of Margaret Ann?

Kath. x

If the date of birth in the bible is correct then I would think the birth registered in the June qtr. would be the most likely.

I would try ordering that again just giving her name and nothing else but the reference numbers, and see what details are on the certificate when it arrives. I notice that there are two registered in the June qtr. but neither of these have a middle name - just Margaret Jenkins.

Kath. x

I don't know if tracing using the address will work, looking through the paperwork Margaret was at Brecon Rd, Merthyr T in 1880, 32 Penn St, Merthyr T in 1891, and Albion House, Cilfynydd, (district of Pontypridd) at the time of her marriage in 1899.
And by the way Richard was put down as a collier on the marriage cert.
I hope this will help with determining my next steps.

Do you have the details of the census records because I still can't find the family you give (Richard, Gwen, etc.) on either the 1881 or 1891 census in Wales?

Kath. x

Sorry if this sounds a bit thick but, how can I check when Richard and Gwen got married when I don't know her maiden name. Is there a particular site I need to go on.
If you want to see for yourself on the census Lizzie M age 9, Margaret age 12, Richard (Brother) aged 17, Richard (father) aged 39 and Gwen aged 37.

I forgot to add that the ages are taken from the 1891 census

You can check on FreeBMD for marriages using just one full name and the first name of the partner.

You must be using a different site to me for the census (I'm using Ancestery) because I still can't find the family in either the 1881 census or the 1891 census in Wales.

Kath. x

Please give FULL details of the census to which you refer....I can't find ANY info matching that which you have given us

Is this her marriage?

How old was she?

Marriages Jun 1899 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jenkins Margaret Ann Pontypridd 11a 796
Evans Isaac Pontypridd 11a 796

I think this them;

1891 Wales Census
about Margaret D Teullius
Name: Margaret D Teullius
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Gwen
Gender: Female
Where born: Merthyr-Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil Parish: Merthyr Tydfil
Ecclesiastical parish: Pentrebach
Town: Forest
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street address: 32 Penn Street
Condition as to marriage: View Image
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Lower Merthyr Tydfil
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Teullius 39
Gwen Teullius 37
Richard Teullius 17
Margaret D Teullius 12
Lizzie M Teullius 9
John Owens 37

Well-spotted Dee......

It would have saved a lot of angst if the OP had told us about the mistranscription!!!!

Aged 12 in 1891 means born no later than 1879.....more probably late 1878

Ahhhh - so that's why I couldn't find them.

Kath. x

Hi,

The only Richard Jenkins to Gwen marriage I can see at Merthyr from 1870 - 1891

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1888 (96%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ELLIOTT Arthur Charles Merthyr T. 11a 647
JENKINS Richard Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647
JONES Selina Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647
Llewellyn Gwenllian Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647



Dee x

There is no way of knowing from census info whether Gwen was the mother of the children named.

With that thought in mind............

Marriages Mar 1888 (96%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ELLIOTT Arthur Charles Merthyr T. 11a 647
JENKINS Richard Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647
JONES Selina Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647
Llewellyn Gwenllian Merthyr Tydfil 11a 647


And this (1881) matches birth details as per 1891

Name: Gwen Llewellyn
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Maria
Gender: Female
Where born: Gelligaer, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil Parish: Gelligaer
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street address: 5 Brook Row


Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub-registration district: Gelligaer
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Maria Llewellyn 60
Gwen Llewellyn 27
Sarah J. Llewellyn 16
John Robinson 17

So this is Richard Snr in 1871............ we need to find the 1881 census,


1871 Wales Census
about Richard Jenkins
Name: Richard Jenkins
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanfihangel-Nant-Bran, Breconshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Llanfihangel Nant Bran
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Street address:

Occupation: farm servant

Condition as to marriage: unmarried

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Brecknock
Sub-registration district: Merthyr
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
Howell James 45
Jane James 32
Thomas James 6
Jane James 3
Richard Jenkins 22

So GWEN is still living with her mother in 1881.......... unmarried, no children on the census.

What was the stated occupation of Richard on the marriage cert?