Genealogy Chat

Hello Elaine,

I'm not suggesting any scandal as such, but there is a possibility that Margaret and Florence are related. It may be that Samuel is Florence's father because:

1. Same surname (Snow)
2. A witness to a Snow marriage
3. Music Hall connection
4. Florence Victoria's other initials SS (Sneath, Stowers?)

Another possibility reason that you can't find the marriage for Samuel is that could he have married in Dublin, therefore records not available on FreeBMD?

He certainly seems to have travelled all over the country, which ties in with his work.

The only way forward is Florence's marriage certificate (details given in earlier post). You can order online from the GRO for seven pounds.

Please let us know the outcome if you decide to get the certificate.

Selena

PS Who is Robert?

hi Selena,

i have led a very sheltered life - i dont do discrete - please tell me!!! what do you mean by 'more than a coincidence' there being a witness called Snow? Are you saying that this may be another illegitimate child of Samuel?

Hi Netty,

thanks for answering on my thread - all help is MUCH appreciated!! do you think that Florence Poole is the daughter of Samuel - he would have been 32 when she was born. her mother is also Eliza the same mother as his other daughter Margaret. they are also music hall people [or as he called himself in 1875 'theatrical'] or do you think that he stole the name?

i am very confused by all of this - and must bow to the experience of you two who have so much more knowledge than i. i am looking for a scandal - but how do you both interpret this info? and did Eliza marry Robert after she had had Margaret [this is getting more and more like Eastenders or Coronation Street!!!!! and i have always thought these soaps as far fetched!!]

Elaine

Hi Selina, i agree about the marriage cert, Florence certainly can't be ruled out, it would be interesting to find out who her father was. Birth cert would be good too (For mother) but i can't help with Irish records, mores the pity.

Netty x.

Netty, many thanks. I am certain there must be a connection to Samuel -

"He has put himself down on both of the certs i have in front of me as 'vocalist' and 'theatrical' so i wondered if it was anything to do with a stage name -

So Florence's husband is the in business!!!

I hope Elaine decides to get a copy of Florence's marriage certificate - I know I would.

Many thanks again

Selena

If this is Florence after marriage (No mention of the SS), she was born in Dublin. Can't find her on census before 1901.

1901

Name: Florence V Poole
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Dublin, Ireland

Civil Parish: Leeds
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address: << 70 Wade Lane.

Occupation: << Music Hall Artist.

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Leeds
Sub registration district: West Leeds
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 141
Household Members: Name Age

Robert Geldart 56 << Advertising Agent.
Eliza Geldart 50
Melbourne Geldart 26
Henri Poole 24 << Boarder. Music Hall Artist. b London.
Florence V Poole 23



Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4228; Folio: 24; Page: 24.

Just a gentle nudge.

I think it must be more than a coincidence that there is a witness called Snow on the marriage - although I cannot see Florence Victoria SS Snow anywhere other than her marriage in 1900.

Fingers crossed someone can find her on an earlier census.

thanks Rachele - nice to hear from you - and thanks for reading my thread!

Elaine

Hi,

Selena - Florence Victoria is a witness on the marriage cert - i have no idea who she is - just the same surname

Maggie - i have tried to find the same info as you kindly found for me on the 1851, 1861 and 1871 census' that you have found and still cannot find anything! which site did you find this info on? [i have tried feecen, ancestry and geneologist! i must be doing something drastically wrong here]

Elaine

Marriages Dec 1900
Poole Thomas Henry Hull 9d 541
Snow Florence Victoria S S Hull 9d 541

Who is this lady I wonder? What does the S S stand for? Sneath, Stowers?

So who is Florence, sister, aunt, niece, sister-in-law?

Can any kind soul help find Florence Victoria Stowers/Snow/Sneath (Ayers) cos I can't!

You can also use http://www.freecen.org.uk/
They have some coverage of Norfolk for 1861/71/91 - this coverage doesn't include Mancroft. Most of the censuses posted on these boards are from Ancestry.

may i ask which websites you both used to find this information? i dont know whether Geneologist is a good site or not [the main site i use to look up census info other that 1881!] - but i have not been able to find the census info you have provided on there!! i have had to use ancestry.com and a friend will help me from there to view the info.

any tips about sites would be great!

Elaine

Hi Maggie and Selena,

sorry - this has taken a bit of time to get my head around it all. how complicated.

Selena - the Margaret May Stowers you have found HAS to be the correct person because the birthdate is exactly the same - 26/11/1875.

Maggie - his sister's name is the same as the woman he married? you dont think it WAS his sister do you?

the marriage cert with the name Snow - is the original - it is his daughter marriage cert. her name is Snow on it and his name also Snow. she was married on 24/3/1898 to Albert Hertbert Wood - my g.g.grandfather. there is also a witness by the name of Florence Victoria Snow on the cert. they were married at Birmingham Register Office.

thank you to both of you for helping me - you are stars!!!!

i will now try to find them, as you have done on the census' - i would never have managed on my own. i now understand what you said about varying names etc -but where to start is the problem.

Elaine

thank you Maggie and Selena,

i am at work at the moment - will get back to you tonight to try and get my head around all the info you have both found.

Selena - that is definately the correct Margaret May you found on the last post

Elaine

It looks like Margaret was baptised with one name and registered with another!

Margaret May Stowers
Birth: 26 NOV 1875

Christening: 08 DEC 1875 Gateshead, Durham, England

Father: Samuel Sneath Stowers
Mother: Eliza Ayers Stowers

Births Dec 1875
Sneath Margaret May Gateshead 10a 854

Elaine,

Perhaps it is me who is thick - I am prepared to accept it!

Do you not think that what I have found is the right person? 4 Censuses and two births?

According to me, Samuel was born Samuel Neath Stowers, so not suprising that he used the name Stowers later on (but no idea about Snow).

I was suggesting that he might not have known that his father was in prison when he was a toddler, and only discovered that when he was older. But since making that suggestion I found that he was registered as Samuel Neath Stowers.

Re marrying the mother, lots of people didn't marry, and lots of people ended up bringing up children that were not theirs, and yes, children just adopted the surname of the head of the household cos they didn't know any better. My cousin always thought his mother was Harriet Millward, but she was Harriet Dakin, brought up by Samuel Millward (and probably was his child anyway, but her mother was still married to a living husband called Dakin). Grandparents did often bring up grandchildren - in fact all sorts of things happened depending on the circumstances.

Let me know what you think.

Maggie.

PS, Samuel Senior was a Boarding House Keeper, just the place for a young son to meet a travelling singer!

oh - and what did Samuel Snr do? does it say? [i am waiting for a scandal and not getting very far!!!]

Elaine

Maggie,

so - and i am sorry for being thick here - why do you think Samuel would not change his name until between 1875-1898? [as he is still Sneath on the birth cert.] do you think that he was just looking for a new name and wanted to disassociate himself from his family - maybe because he was already married?

do you think that he never actually married his daughter's mother - but just adopted the child into his family? i did think of this, but thought that the mother's parents would be left to bring up the child [not his wife!] - as he would not want his wife to know and everyone else to know about the illegtimacy?

Elaine

Elaine - it wasn't so bad as this happened in Aberdeenshire, and Scottish certificates are much more informative than English ones. On the negative side, Aberdeenshire had the third highest illegetimacy rate in the UK, at 13+%, (about twice the English rate), although not all my relatives came from Aberdeenshire. This, too, has a negative side, as those who didn't come from Aberdeenshire came from Banffshire where the rate was slightly higher.

The net effect is that I've got dead-ends in my tree where I can put a name & occup in a box, but never get further back than that in most cases.
My dad's step-father's b.cert names his father as his mum's husband. I'm inclined to think this unlikely - partly because it seems so out of character for his mum, and partly as her husband had been dead for over two years. Some 70 y later, my step-grandad and his daughter were near his birthplace visiting his grandchild, and as they passed a particular building, he told his daur his real dad engaged in such and such an occup there, so, although he never named his dad, we now know from the census who that really was.

Sister Margaret born Sep 1840 is registered as Margaret Stowers.

Maggie