Genealogy Chat

Ozi, my Mumfords were from Essex. Mumford isn't a very common name now, but it seems like half of England was named Mumford in the early 1800's. I'm sure we've all found that to be true about our ancestors, which makes it a bit difficult to search, doesn't it?

I've just been looking at online photographs of Dittisham; it is a very pretty area!

A friend who I've done some research for has Mumfords in her tree. They came from Dittisham, Devon. When my husband & I were in the UK last we went to Dittisham. It's a very pretty village & we had a really lovely walk around it. I took a zillion photos.

Ozi.

Ozi, isn't it amazing to see our ancestor's names in print! And, sometimes being able to read what they actually said about the crime!

Heather, Wow. Quite a collection of stories and especially sad about the one who was the victim of fraud. :(

I didnt find much on mine for ages til the last lot of released cases. And I was totally gobsmacked - my Great Grandads, both sides (one as a victim of a fraud against his company - gave me an insight into his suicide a few years later as a bankrupt), the other guy was a hero, saving a woman from 3 lustful spanish sailors and getting badly stabbed in his attempt. Lots of others from direct ancestry but the biggest shock of all was myGGFx2 being indicted for murder having had a fight with a man in 1844 Stepney and the guy died the next day.

The www is a wonder, isn't it?

I did find another ancestor at the Old Bailey. He was a witness. He helped catch a thief who was robbing his neighbour.

Ozi.

Ozi, isn't it amazing what we can find on the internet?

Have you tried googling Old Bailey (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/) to see if your family members are mentioned? As it turns out, my James' father had a coat stolen while at a market; I never would have thought of looking there. Also, maybe this is how you found him, but have you tried googling Bethnal Green and your ancestor's name? If not, there might be more to be found.

Well, that's exciting.

I know how you feel. When an ancestor married in 1845 her father was deceased. She & her brother were living in 1841 in Bethnal Green which, thank you enumerator, had an address.

Imagine my suprise when googling father's name & came across a record of an insurance policy in his name for same address!

Ozi.

Ozi
:)

I believe I posted a bit of this on a previous thread, but since we've been talking about this family, I thought I would share it again. I just found this information about three weeks ago:
July 17 1865
Disastrous Fire: Great Loss of Property
"We have to record this morning the particulars of a great conflagration which, in the amount, value and variety of property destroyed, and especially in the large space covered by the devouring flames...outrivals anything of the kind which Toronto has witnessed for some years. The principal portion of the property of various kinds covering an area of about one hundred and fifty square yards, has been entirely consumed...

...The original of the fire, so far as can be ____, is this: A few children were observed in the possession of matches in a shed in the read of Mr. James Mumford's butcher shop...from which the flames were first observed...Upon observing the flames, Mrs. Mumford ran to the stable, and catching the occupant, a pony, by the ears, led him quietly enough out into the yard...Mrs. Mumford...found some difficulty in threading her way through the blinding smoke to the store in order to give the alarm..."

The article is quite lengthy. Imagine my surprised to stumble across this information - from just doing my usual goolging. :)

Oh Lisa, Toronto! Not much of a chance for butchers to star there!

Good luck.

Ozi.

Heather, you're most likely correct, life in Canada could have been wonderful, but considering the climate in some parts of Canada, I would imagine the first winter was a real eye-opener, especially if no one had mentioned the "little bit of cold and snow that sometimes occurs in winter". ;)

DET, the uncle actually (probably) lived too far away from Toronto to provide the actual livestock, but he easily could have been instrumental in helping James, as his family was highly regarded in the surrounding areas (according to one newspaper report I found). As I previously mentioned, I certainly will try googling the uncle's information. Thank you very much for your thoughts.
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It is quite interesting reading everyone's family information. I don't know too much about English life in the 1800's (and less about Australia) so this helps paint a picture of what went on so long ago.

Diane, because my ancestors were in Canada by 1872, we don't have any letters with family back home in Ireland or England. I don't believe any siblings followed my ancestors to Ontario. With the exception of James' uncle, I don't believe my ancestors came over after other's in the family had.

I do have one ancestor who lived in New Jersey for a few years and then relocated to Toronto c1855. He had a very uncommon surname and there were two other people in Ontario with that surname, from the same part of Ireland, arriving in Ontario around the same time that my ancestor arrived in New Jersey. There are several descendants now trying to determine if we are related.

Diane, you are quite lucky to know your families history! It is one thing to find facts and figures, quite another to find interesting, personal details!
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I hope the fires have calmed down now? We don't hear anything about what is going on in other countries. I am continuing to think of all of those affected by the devastation. :(
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Diane and Ozi, you actually may have heard about my Irish ancestor (with the uncommon surname I mentioned above). We have not yet found a connection, but we believe my ancestor, John Ovens, could have been related to Major John Ovens. Thank you Diane, as well, for your thoughts with this thread.

Ozi, I don't believe there is any information about my ancestor (and town dignitaries). I've just about found all there is with him. However, there is a bit published about his uncle's family, so I will try searching for more of their information; it could provide some answers!

Another ancestor died in 1928, at the age of 105. I have a copy of her obituary; it was quite lengthy. Among other things, it mentions her 50+ (75?) year life in Toronto. Since James (the ancestor's name, in case I didn't mention it) lived in Toronto over 50 years, he too may have something written. Once again, I had never thought to look, as I assumed no one would have interest. Thank you very much for your thoughts as well. :)

So sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you all for taking an interest.

Heather, the "town's" name is Toronto. While it is an immense city now, it wasn't always so large. (There were less than 38,000 in 1857; probably large for English standards, but not necessarily North American.) When my mum and dad met each other's families (1940's), they found out the families knew each other in the 1880's. Imagine their surprise to hear the stories from long ago.

Thank you very much for the information about Deadwood. I actually have a fascination with the Old West, so it will be fun to read about Deadwood.

I have spent so much time looking for old records about Toronto, but not necessarily with some of the things you have suggested. It will be great fun to try your ideas. Thank you so much for your suggestions.

In Norfolk archives there are some supposed letters from Canadian immigrants writing home to the local newspapers saying what a wonderful life they have now in Canada. Of course, nowdays we would all be sceptics and realise this was just a form of advertising, but I dare say back in the mid 19th century, it was just the encouragement needed to go off to the new provinces :)

Those of our family who migrated to Australia (well Victoria, it was then) did write home and encourage other family members to migrate. They entered various partnerships, worked for each other and helped each other buy property, so we know they were in contact before they arrived.

Diane

Local history assoc would be a goldmine as well. I suspect, Lisa, that early Canadian life would be very similar to Australia, and that these businessmen became town dignitaries, depending on the size of the town.

What about an obituary? Any luck there?

Ozi.

Wonderful stuff :) If he had a calling card - Id have thought he would have joined some associations and been mixing with other business people. It may well be he had just a stall to begin with - I keep thinking of the series Deadwood - which was fascinating - just a saloon, then the stalls set up and then as the town prospered, the stall owners building shops. Council set up, law department set up, fire service - all based on the real development of the town. There is a website you can google to find the story of Deadwood (the real one :)) Oh, found it

http://www.deadwood.net/info.htm

Check out the history of the town where your chap had his shop. Local council records and stuff - would be very interesting. You should be able to find the local records office and email them with the facts you have.

Heather, after all this time of researching, it never once crossed my mind that my ancestor could have lived with his uncle and family. Since my grandfather never mentioned the other branch to his family, and the other branch didn't appear to mention mine, I just assumed they didn't contact each other.

I will have to contact my distant cousin (the "uncle's" side) to see if she knows of anything.

I have not looked into wills in Canada; I will have to see if that is possible. I will also check for any business organizations.

James' uncle was a farmer, so they probably didn't have too much in common as far as occupations.

I have read that Canadian officials put up posters (odd, don't you think?), with incentives to come to Canada. I didn't realize English parishes were also encouraging immigration. My ancestor was born in Essex, but lived in London shortly before his departure.

I cannot find my ancestor's immigration record. There is one record, which is dated one month after my ancestor's got married, with the same names as my ancestors, but the husband's age is incorrect (by several years) and it states they were Irish. This voyage was from England to New York.

I know my ancestor was married in England in March 1857. I have found a book that states "...proprietor of the Baldwin Street Market, known as No. 1 Baldwin Street, first established on Yonge Street in 1857, and moved to his present location [Baldwin] in 1880..." So, within 9 months he had set up the shop. And, now rereading the paragraph, it sounds like he set up the shop, rather than taking it over from someone.

Thank you for your help, Heather. I get so focused on facts that I don't tend to think of other ideas. I will start checking out your suggestions. :)

PS I have an old photograph of whom I believe is this ancestor. I took it to our local museum and it was dated to 1869-71 and was a "calling card." A bit odd to have a very nice looking calling card for a butcher. I think so, anyway. [The gentleman in the photo was a bit distinguished, not the calling card!]