Genealogy Chat

I am now at that stage of having to use parish records but don't what to do, or where to look.

I want to find the baptism of the groom in the following marriage:

Marriage 1834 Spitalfields Christchurch Stepney
James William John Bateman to Jane Louisa Johnson
Witnesses Richard Johnson (Jane's father) and another person who witnessed lots of weddings at church

This is them on the 1841 he is now down as William

1841 Living Maria St, Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets, both ticked as living in County (I think)
William Bateman, 20 can’t read profession
Jane, 25, William, 3, James, 1

By 1851 Jane is a widow. On William junior marriage cert in 1859 he says father is William James, waterman.

Jane was christened at St Saviours Southwark.

How do I find James (or William whatever he is called)? There are several on the IGI.

Any advice very welcome,

Selena

I think Bancroft Road Mile end covers Stepney.I know it does all the electorial rolls.I looked up my grandad on the electorial roll and he lived in Bethnal Green.Otherwise it is up at the Metropolitian Archives in Islington. Annie

Just checked the 1841 and the occupation, to me, looks like "Printer" - bit different to Waterman.

His age stated as 20 yrs must have been rounded down I should think - so he may well have been anything up to 24yrs (otherwise it would mean he married at 13yrs!). Even if he was aged 24yrs in 1841 that would mean he was still young, aged about 17yrs when he married in 1834 (if my sums are right).

So, you are looking for a birth/baptism circa 1817 for a James Bateman and, possibly born in the Shoreditch area (since they have ticked "Born in County" on the 1841 census).

The only one I can see that fits that criteria on the IGI is this one:

James Bateman or Urquhart
Birth: 21 NOV 1812

Christening: 08 JAN 1813 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England

Father: JAMES URQUHART
Mother: MARIA BATEMAN

There is another entry for 1815 a James Bateman born in Cripplegate to James and Amelia.

That's all I could find - sorry!

Regards

Athena

Athena, thank you so much for that. Its much clearer now.

Jane said she was born in County in 1841 but she wasn't. She was born Southwark which I believe is the other side of the river and was in Surrey then.

Not sure where Cripplegate is.

I think I will try and get a census look up for the Urquhart people and see if anything ties in.

Many thanks again
Selena

Have a look at dockland ancestors, they have been transcribing all the baps in the docks area, cant remember which churches now, but you can have a look. Pay to view, in my experience, put in the surname as you bring up the lot in that church for the same price as one. £2.95 If dad were a waterman, you are in luck as they kept very good apprenticeship records and the job was normally passed down within a family.

Grannie Annie, thanks for that - I was trying to not go to the LMA as I am not sure where and what I'm looking for.

Thanks Heather, I've had a quick look at parish register, will have a more thorough look now.

Had not though of apprentice records will look at that now.

Just to make matters worse, I can't find a birth reference for the children on the 1841 census. I was hoping to find out more about their dad!

Selena

Having just checked the 1851 census - I can see that Jane and James had a daughter named... Maria - so that looks promising, doesn't it? (seeing as most parents named their children after one or other of the grandparents). Just another possible clue to getting it right.

Also, if James was born illegitimate (hence the reason for having two surnames on the IGI - and luckily they named the father!), it could be that his parents were never quite truthful about his real age so that he wouldn't know that he had been born prior to them getting wed. I have read of such things going on back then, where children were actually a few years older than they were led to believe!

I'm still puzzled over the occupation of James, though. As Heather says, the waterman profession was usually something passed on through families and an apprenticeship would have to be served. I can't understand how James could be noted as a Printer on the 1841, then he died a within the next 10 years and yet in 1859 his son says his father was a waterman! Very strange.

Unless, of course, due to the son, William, being deaf his speech was unclear and the registrar got it all wrong on the cert!

One last thing for your records - on the 1851 Census, it states Janes birthplace as St Olives Surrey - bet you anything they meant St Olaves (which is Southwark).

Kind regards

Athena

Athena, many thanks again. It does help get a clearer picture when someone else looks at a problem.

I have found Ann's birth reference in Bermondsey so will order that to see what Dad's profession is.

Another problem I have, there is a Samuel Bateman next door on the 1841 but I cannot find any connection - felt sure it must be a relative.

Se;ema

...sorry, me again!

No births for a Maria Bateman c1843 - but there are two for 1841 which might be worth a try:

Name: Maria Bateman
Year of Registration: 1841
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 484 (

(That one is nearest to St Olaves)

The next one could just be coincidental with the first name being Jane -

Name: Jane Maria Bateman
Year of Registration: 1841
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 276

I'd opt for the Southwark birth first and take it from there.

Athena

just seeing to kids tea, back a bit later, thanks for the help,

Selena

Off home in a min too - best wishes with your searches.

Athena

One last thought, I would have thought that Jane would have had some children between her marriage in 1834 and what seems to be her first child William in 1838 ish.

Puzzled,

Selena

Hi Selena

People usually had relatives living nearby. I have some Bermondsey ancestors but unfortunately St Mary Magdalen is only indexed from 1801 on the IGI as my rellie was born there in 1776, well the rough year of birth. Have you got Samuel Bateman's age in 1841 as I could look him up for you on the 1851? What was his 1841 occupation? You could always do a "Parent search" on the IGI.

Have you checked any Samuel and William Bateman births to the same parentage?

Here is a possible Samuel Bateman birth for you to go on.

SAMUEL THOMAS BATEMAN
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
13 DEC 1802
Christening:
03 JAN 1803 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: SAMUEL BATEMAN Family
Mother: SARAH

Ben

Hello Benjamin, thanks for responding. Samuel Bateman is 30 on the 1841. He is with Charlotte age 26, who I think might be his sister as I have tried to solve this problem before on the boards a couple of years ago.

Samuel appears to be an undertaker.

Not sure how to do a parent search on the igi? Hey - just learnt how to do it!

Hi Selena

Go into FamilySearch, then click on the "International Genealogical Index" search feature, then type in the parents names, and select region, which is British Isles then England the London Greater. Dont type in the childrens names, leave them blank, just type in the parents names and surname. If you are unsure, just ask?

Ben

Ben, thanks, been having a play with it!

Selena

Hi Selena

Came back to this thread as I found it quite an interesting one to work on yesterday.

In answer to your question as to why there were no children between 1834 and 1838 - there could be two possibilities here, I think.

The obvious one is that perhaps there was a child or two born between this time who consequently died as infants.

Checking the IGI I can see that there is a Jane Bateman b 21 June 1837, Marylebone, to parents James Bateman and Jane. Could this have been your couple's earlier child? Adding weight to this is the fact that there is also a birth registration on the GRO indexes for a James Bateman b1840 Marylebone (is this the 1yr old child showing on the 1841 census perhaps?). You could order that cert and if it turns out to be your Bateman family, it is then easier to tie up the 1837 birth of Jane to this family.

The other possibility is that, if when the couple married James believed himself to be "under-age" they may well have waited until he was "of age" to start a family. Again, reading through various history books I have found mention of various cases of young teens getting married, say at 13 or 14 yrs, but not having their first child until they were over 21yrs.

Just some food for thought.

Also - re Samuel Bateman - it's possible that this man could even have been an uncle. If we assume for now that the baptism entry found earlier is the correct one (Father James Urquhart, Mother Maria Bateman) then because "Bateman" was his mother's surname, Samuel could quite easily have been her younger brother or cousin even. Not necessarily that Samuel was an older brother of James - there doesn't appear to be a baptism for a Samuel Batemen with mother named Maria, anyway.

sorry, hope I'm not confusing the issue. I tend to think aloud LOL

Athena

Thanks Athena, I am just logging on briefly as I am in work at present. I will have a think through about the Marylebone connection.

My initial problem is his first name: James on marriage but William on census. I'm sure it's the right family as I have followed Jane right through to the 1880's with her grandchildren and her second marriage (incidently it was to Richard Ranoe, next door neighbour on the 1851 also deaf). She also was the informant on her son William's death in 1870 age 35 (again no birth record found for him ).

I have ordered the birth cert of Ann Bateman 1847. The family seem to have moved to Deptford/Greenwich between 1847 to 1851 and stayed there until post 1930.

Will get back to the thread later this afternoon, many thanks again

back to work now,
Selena