Genealogy Chat

In my family there is an Oliver who was the illegitimate son of my 2x great grandmother. His father is unknown (except he sometimes used a surname as a middle name.......he wasn't baptised with that).

The first mention of this Oliver is one census when he is called by his mother's surname. Later my 2x great grandmother married my 2x great grandfather and from then on Oliver used his stepfather's name. When Oliver married he said his father was my 2x great grandfather.

I now wonder if Margaret is the stepchild of a William Hocknell. That would mean finding a marriage for a William Hocknell after 1901 because we didn't find them together then.


Nice little puzzle this one!

Sue
x

Ah that ruins my idea! LOL

These ancestors just didn't know how difficult they were making it for us.

So we still have a missing Margaret (surname now a bit uncertain).

Sue
x

I have just received an email from Kathyrn B who is currently off site, but who has been reading this thread.

Like me, she is uncertain about a Daisy Hocknell record we found earlier

She has found this marriage:-


Name: Daisy Hocknell
Year of Registration: 1927
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's Surname: Mourant
District: Birkenhead (1861-1998)
County: Cheshire, Merseyside
Volume: 8a
Page: 1146

K


is is a possiblity?


sylvia

hi the witnessess names are

J Nield which is jimmy nield apparently james's brother and Ada Grattan who was Ada nield before she married charles arthur grattan.

Thanks Sue, it makes it a bit clearer.

Stacey, are there any clues in the witnesses names on the 1920 marriage cert? Can you post the names.

Selena

That's been the problem Selena. There is no birth reference for Margaret.

However if we go along with the theory that Margaret and Daisy are one and the same individual we end up with a child of the right age with a father called William Hocknell as she claimed, and who was born in Ireland (unlike her siblings) so no birth reference is understandable.

It would be interesting to know what her mother at least was doing in Ireland when Daisy was born but it isn't that far from Birkenhead/Liverpool etc.

It is also not the first time that the names Daisy and Margaret have been used for the same child. This was a fairly common thing in Victorian times.

Sue

Just thinking aloud, as I can't quite get my head around this.

Could Margaret herself have been illegitimate? Going from George's birth cert, I agree with Jane that Margaret's maiden name should be Todd.

She may have known that William Hocknell was her biological father and then put him down on her marriage cert to Mr Neild.

Has anyone found a birth reference for Margaret?

Selena

I'm pretty convinced by Sue's reasoning (except for the 55m from Chorlton to Birkenhead more like 55 km since it's 35m Liverpool - Manchester). Since Margt's dad was William, I'd guess George Todd was the father of George W.H. Todd. There is a George Todd d 31/7/1917 at CWGC, from Liverpool (Paddington), but he was only 19 when he died, cf Margt's 23. He won a MM, and a war death would have been so much more acceptable than a walk-out, I'm sure if he'd been the dad, there would have been a family legend.
However, if he'd have been around Margt's age, then he'ld be liable for conscription (unless he was serving / had served). Is there some registery of potential conscripts available (like there is in the US), and is there free/cheap online access?

I checked that Harry and he was registered as Harry not Henry. However in the absence of any Margarets of the right age I still think that is her family.

Sue
x

Hi all,

Looks like Annie Booth

Marriages 1866-1920 : Records 1 - 4 of 4



Name Spouse Name District Page Quarter Year View Image Add Comment View Comment Marriage Match
BOOTH Annie Oldham.8d 984 4 1888

DICKINSON John Gould Oldham.8d 984 4 1888

GRANGE Mary Ann Oldham.8d 984 4 1888

HOCKNELL William Henry Oldham.8d 984 4 1888





BW

Jane

This looks like the marriage of William Hocknell. Can't click on the page to see who wife Annie was.

Marriages Dec 1888
HOCKNELL William Henry Oldham 8d 9*4

This birth is the right name and age but to be the correct one the registration wasn't done where he was born according to the 1901. This is very uncertain.
Births Jun 1864
HOCKNELL William Henry Glanford B 7a 607


Sue
x

Thinking about this Margaret overnight I am now pretty convinced that she is that Daisy.

Several possible pointers to that:

In Victorian times the names Daisy and Margaret were used rather as we might use Bill and William. The 1901 census shows Daisy's sibling Harry called by what could really be Henry. I think whoever told the enumerator the children's names used their everyday ones. My next move would be to check if Harry was Henry in BMD.

Margaret's birth is missing and there are no other Margaret Hocknells. Daisy was born in Ireland for some reason. I'd now check to see if Daisy is registered there or in Birkenhead.

Even if named Daisy at birth Margaret could have decided she felt more like a Margaret later in life!

I think this line is worth exploring further.

Sue
x
What Americans?

Multimap reckons that Chorlton to Birkenhead is about 55 miles so that is certainly not beyond a possibility.

In Victorian times Margaret was often called Daisy because a Marguerite is a type of Daisy and the Victorians knew about the language of flowers.

A few days ago someone was asking about why her auntie Daisy had been known as Peggy. That was because Auntie Daisy had perhaps been actually baptised Margaret or a relation knew of the Daisy/Margaret connection.

Sue
x

all the other kids except Daisy born Birkenhead, Cheshire

1901 Census

Name: Daisy Hocknell
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William H
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Birkenhead
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birkenhead
Sub-registration district: Birkenhead
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Harriett Hall 20
Annie Hocknell 37
Annie D M Hocknell 7
Daisy Hocknell 6
Harry Hocknell 4
Herbert Hocknell 9
Lily Hocknell 2
William H Hocknell 37 b.ca 1864, Seaul Brook, Leicestershire, Publican




Not sure about this one!



sylvia

I think I have solved the mystery!!!

Remembering a discussion we had on these boards a few days ago when I told some people that Daisy was often used as a pet name for Margaret I searched for a small Daisy Hocknell in 1901.

She's there aged 6 in Birkenhead with a William (a publican)

I haven't got full access to the 1901 so someone else needs to bring up the full page.

Sue
x

To me it sounds as if Joan is right.

I would have guessed that Margaret had a child by a Todd and wanted her son to have his father's name.

Technically then she couldn't have done so and couldn't have added father to the birth cert unless father came with her to the registration and gave his permission.

Calling herself Mrs or Miss Todd at the time of the registration meant she could ensure her son had the father's surname.

Either this relationship ended or Mr Todd died. She would then have had no reason to use anything but her own maiden name when she married. It becomes even more poignant if the father had indeed died in the war while she was pregnant.

Sue
x

thank everyone,

right her fathers occupation was cleansing inspector.
her age at marriage was 25
James and margaret did not have any children together but james did have other children to his other wife before she died they were an ada and jimmy nield.

The letter my grandad has is from the general register office London it states that:

'Your name on birth cert appears as George William Hocknell Todd the three names inserted in colunm 10 being your forenames and Todd being your surname.

we have traced records of a marriage of margaret hocknell to a james arthur nield on 18th dec 1920.

Margaret being the daughter of a William hocknell'

How old was she on her marriage cert to Mr Neild?

Selena

Did James and Margaret have any children together?
I was thinking that we could look and see what was given as her maiden name on those childrens registrations.

Gwyn