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In view of Alan's medical problems, can we all agree to nudge this every couple of days? I am not a lover of nudges, but it seems useful here.

Thanks all for taking the time to look things up. It is much appreciated.

Ok....lets see what I do know.

John Wilson married Emma Tuck in 1892.

These are my great grandparents..these are the folks mentioned on my grandfathers birth cert.

Married in the Parish Church Portsea, Portsmouth, Hampshire, Englan, .23rd April 1892.
John is said to be 30 years old...and Emma 28.
John himself has occupation of Carpenters mate aboard HMS Active.
His father is a William Wilson..Occupation Shipwright.

John & Emma are my great grandparents..this is for sure.

I also have a birth cert for a John Wilson who I believe maybe of the above John Wilson
These are the details

John Wilson...born Portsea, Portsmouth, 18th October 1862. 4 Unicorn Street (I believe this was inside the dockyard)

Father is a William Wilson..mother Agnes Wilson formerly McCaskie.
Occupation of father "sapper Royal Enginners"

Birth registered 1st or 8th ( cant make it out) Jan 1863.
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I am not 100% that the birth cert is the correct one for John Wilson I am seeking.
It does fit most of my John details....BUT..I need to find out IF I have the right one..or have I got it wrong?
If so..I need to find John's parents, and a birth reference which will match my John so I can find out his family
and so....get pass this block..and head further back in time.
Thanks to Ellen ..and others we do have info on the William & Agnes mentioned on the possible birth cert.
All help is much appreciated..really is..even if i am a little odd..(health problems)
Many thanks in Advance
Paul

I now have to go out and complete my paper round..I hope to be back online in about 2hrs..with luck.

Thanks guys

You confused me Boogie. Your original post said that William was a sapper, Royal Engineers and a Shipwright. Me being ignorant of military matters assumed that Royal Engineers built ships and were something to do with the Navy. But it seems not.

The Royal Engineers, known as The Sappers, was a branch of the Army, they were combat soldiers also trained in engineering and they built bridges and other defences.

Shipwrights were of the Royal Navy (or could be civilians) and the term Carpenter was an alternative name until 1916. They built ships.

So the William who is a Shipwright on John's marriage is unlikely to be the William who is a sapper Royal Engineers who is father of John born Portsmouth.

Can you answer my question regarding Dorothy and Christina - do you have any idea what happened to them?

Okay, so now I know about Carpenters and Shipwrights, I have further learnt the the Carpenter's Mate was the actual working shipwright, whereas those who were known formally as Shipwrights were officers. A Carpenter's Mate could also progress to officer status though few progressed beyond Lieutenant. If John became an officer we might have access to more records we can search for his place of birth.

My hubby has just returned from watching his football team lose again, so I cheered him up by asking him what he knew about Royal Engineers and Shipwrights and he immediately informed me that one was Army and one was Navy and a man would not have joined up with both!

So this now leads me right back to the Liverpool John, whom I was put off because he appeared to be a Shipwright in 1881 and had been "demoted" to Carpenter's Mate by 1891.

It therefore seems 99.9999% certain that this is Boogie's John.

Page 2 of this thread tell us nicely that:

In 1891 John is in Liverpool aboard HMS Active (which then takes him to Portsmouth)
In 1881 he is with parents William 49 and Esther 47, age 22
In 1871, ditto, age 11
Not yet found (or looked for) in 1861, but dad William is a boarder in Plymouth, born Liverpool.

Possible marriage of William to Esther Moore, September 1853, but some doubt as in 1861 William may still be with his parents, and single.

EDIT No, Dea found him in Portsmouth, a lodger, married.

But I can't find Esther and John.

Hi Madmeg,

Many thanks for you post..most interesting.

It said William was a sapper RN E, on the birth cert of the John who I thought was Williams son.
On Johns marrige cert it says William was a Shipwright...
So I guess we can say..the birth cert I have for John is incorrect?

Its the military thing which has stopped me getting past John to his father William and family..so I can proceed further.

So I now need to find Johns birth cert reference number and that of William's marriage so I can purchase them.

Paul
x

Sorry. I do not know what happend to any of Johns & Emma's other children, John, Dorothy, Christina.

John was a Blacksmiths labourer
Dorothy was a Domestic Servant
No idea about Christian

I only know of Leslie....my grandfather...apparently he was a Lt. in the Navy..& a drunk. But I do not know if is was RN or merchant.

I never met any of my grandparents....either side of the family.
I didn't even know their names until last year.!

My sister has limited contact with my fathers last surviving sibling.
He told her Leslie was a Lt in navy, didnt say which,..and that he was a drunk.
He also sent her copies of a photo's of Leslie & his wife...
This was the first time I had ever seen any photo's of my grandparents...

Strangely enough..I worked on a Naval base for 18 years...with Navy, Army & Marines.
HMS Excellent, Horsea Island..the Defence Diving School.

They trained all military forces divers...including civilian types..like police, fireman, and merchant navy ( ferry crews etc) . And forces of foreign nations. US, Saudias, Australian, Etc.

Boogie you have confused me again with two "new" bits of information.

Several times the thread tells us that the William on the birth cert you have is a "Sapper Royal Engineers". Now you are saying it actually says "Sapper RN E". As I said earlier, my military knowledge is zilch, but the Royal Navy did indeed have Engineers, but from what I can glean they were not known as sappers. You did say your typing wasn't always good, so can you please clarify what it does say on the certificate?

Now you have said your grandfather was Leslie. I assumed he was John born 1894, as I can find no John and Emma with a son Leslie. So you have a birth certificate of Leslie Wilson, parents John Wilson and Emma Tuck? What date is on this birth certificate?

Margaret

Hi Madmeg,

Sapper RN E = sapper Royal Navy Enginner..same things..just my typing.

William is John's father
John is Leslie's father

Leslie is my grandfather
John is my great grandftather
William is my great great grandfather.

I think we are now assuming the birth cert I have for the John is wrong.
But I do know my John does have a father named William...this comes via John's marriage cert.

I know John Wilson and Emma Tuck are Leslie's parents..as they are the names on Leslies birth cert.
And on John's marriage cert to Emma...William is named as father...

Leslie Wilson is the name on my fathers birth cert, as father.

I know up to John & Emma is fully correct.....
I am after finding Johns family..

His father William & mum (who ever she is ) and any siblings.
Also to find out when and where John was born..as with out that info, I can't find William.

I had thought the birth cert I had for John was correct..as he is the only John born that date 1862 in Portsmouth. Assuming that was his place of birth...He is the only one I found.

Reason is on marrige cert it said he was 30 when he married..making 1862 the year he was born, more or less. As he was married in Portsmouth,and Emma was born in Portsmouth and he was in the Dockyard..I assumed he was born in Portsmouth.
And the cert I have fits.

Right birth, right place, right fathers name....BUT..it looks like the cert is wrong.(assumed via the posts in this thread)

So..I now have to start again..looking for a John Wilson born 1862-ish....father William....but no idea where!

The John and William born in Liverpoool(see thread)...look like likely candidates...but as yet..not 100% confrimed...as all details are not in to make a decision.

Maybe it is me wanting to get it clear but I am beginning to think I have my knickers in a twist. Maybe you have already got it clear. But I am still worried. Sorry to be such a pain Boogie.

So your grandfather is Leslie, son of John and Emma Tuck. I still can't find a Leslie born to this couple. When was he born, and where?

You told us you never knew your grandparents. So how sure are you that your grandfather is Leslie (presumably you have your father's marriage certificate that shows that). Do you then also know know the name of your grandmother? Marriage place and date, please.

How do you then know that Leslie was the son of John and Emma Tuck? Family heresay, or via certificates? But if family heresay, unlikely to be wrong with a name like Tuck.

There is no Leslie Wilson in 1901 or 1911 living with John Wilson and Emma, or even just Emma. So who is Leslie Wilson?

No worries Madmeg,

These are my great grandparents. John & Emma.

Marriages Jun 1892
WILSON John Portsea 2b 879
Tuck Emma Portsea 2b 879

Their son Leslie & Leslie's marriage to my grandmother, Daisy Johnston
This is all correct.

Births Sep 1901
Wilson Leslie Whitford Portsmouth 2b 433

Marriages Jun 1923
Wilson Leslie W Johnston Portsmouth 2b 1140
Johnston Daisy L Wilson Portsmouth 2b 1140

I now need to go back to Johns family.
His father William...and family...but I am not 100% sure the cert I brought for John is correct.
As it is..it probably isn't..

So those found (kindly by other in this thread) being born In Liverpool..seem to be a better option.

Ah, so that is the one - in 1911 at the Home for Orphaned Boys, Hextable, Kent. He is just plain Leslie there, but right age, right birthplace, and although he wasn't technically an orphan (in fact a lot of them appear not to be), his father was dead. And Hextable is close to Chatham so that could be a Naval connection. I read that it was a home for "lower middle class boys", which the son of a Ship's Carpenter would probably be.

It would seem that the Navy organised the places for Leslie and Christina. I can't find anything about Christina's school but the Hextable orphanage still exists as the Furness School.

Furness School. Rowhill Rd. Hextable. Kent. BR8 7RP. Tel: 01322 662937. Fax: 01322 615033

I wonder if they will have records (or know of them) that might confirm where his father was from.

Meanwhile, it is back to John born in Liverpool. I wish we could find him in 1901. But he was on the right ship in 1891, which sailed from Liverpool to Portsmouth.

Yes Madmeg,

Seems rather odd that Christina & Leslie are in homes.(schools)
John & Dorothy are still live at home in 1911....they both appear to be working..so why are their siblings in home?
Surely they had enough money for all to be at home?.
Emma was also working...strange.

Maybe because the Navy was footing the bills...so no cost to Emma...but still.

I do have my fathers birth cert..
Leslie's birth cert
Leslie's marrige cert

That gets me to John & Emma. William named on their marrige cert. And Leslies birth cert.

According to my fathers last surviving sibling...When Leslie took one of his children to be registered ( my uncle..the last surving).
He was so drunk he couldn't tell the registrar the correct name he wanted
and so got my uncles middle name wrong...not what he originally wanted.

Sad...hehehe

No, I think it is quite good that Christina and Leslie have been "looked after" by the Navy. The two older children did not need the same attention. And I have not a clue whether Emma would have got a pension, so she may have had to work. It must have been a relief to have two of her children looked out for. Though from what you say, it didn't do Leslie a lot of good to be so far from home.

It is easy for us to imagine that our ancestors were all lovely people, but perhaps Leslie's father was also a drunk. Perhaps in 1901 he ought to have been on ship, but was in fact lying in a stupor in some tavern. We don't know. My cousin had a drunken father (and he's still alive age 98), and when I researched her family tree I discovered the likelihood that all his ancestors were "less desirable" too - fathers living apart from their wives, in hostels and taverns - and why?

I'd see if you can find anything out from the home/school in Kent.

Might also be worth contacting the Royal Navy re the whereabouts and crew of the ship at the night of the 1901 census.

So, its off to find John Wilson of Liverpool.

Margaret

Very kind of you to still be looking Madmeg.
Is appreciated. :)

I do not know why Leslie was a heavy drinker...maybe to much Naval traditons etc turned him into such..i don't know...
After spending 18 years working on Naval Bases....I do now they do put it away at times.
Plus maybe influence from living in Liverpool..at times could be tough there.
I do no know as yet..when Leslie died. I did find a picture of him with my father in my fathers wallet after he died.(my father that is).

But I didn't know the man in the photo with my father was Leslie...until this year.
My father looks about 7-8 years old...his father looks like late 40's maybe 50's.
My last surving uncle sent my sister two photo's..one of Leslie...so that confirmed the guy in the picture with my father was Leslie my grandfather.
And one of a woman...who I assume is Daisy..his wife

She looks like she is in her early 20's maybe a little younger..maybe a litle old...hard to tell. And looking demure.
Was very strange seeing them for the 1st time.

When I had made a mistake before on this side...the Wilson line I had(which I now know is wrong)..also took me back to Liverpool...!
So I maybe related to those who i thought was wrong!...lol..crazy

Hi folks,

haven't been ignoring this thread - have been away for a long (very wet!) weekend.

The navy records Madmeg posted weren't the ones I posted - I posted John Williams! (Senior moment),. I deleted so as not to confuse.

The dates given in the Navy records at the National Archives are dates of birth ( have checked my grandfather's just to be sure).

This is the only one coming up for a John Wilson, b1859 to 1862, in Liverpool.

Name Wilson, John
Official Number: 135161
Place of Birth: Liverpool

Date 17 April 1859
Catalogue reference ADM 188/185
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Piece 135001 - 135500
Image contains 1 document of many for this catalogue reference

Boogie, you can download this from the National Archives for £3.50. The only personal info on my grandfather's was his DOB, POB and occupation on joining. There is also a physical description but no next of kin or address mentioned.

I did wonder (after reading ,I think, Madmegs post), that he may have been made up to Lt - but Navy Officers records aren't online.