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As I recall my theory, and after a little reviewing, it was this.

James Greenwood living in 1841 with some Whiteheads.

The connection made when Betty Greenwood found living with the same Whiteheads in 1851; Betty would be the daughter of Susannah Whitehead, sister of Ralph, etc., and that James evidently her son.

(This is not the same Betty Greenwood as the Betty Omroyd married to a Richard Greenwood, as she has independent existence in the censuses.)

Cannot find any marriage to account for Betty Whitehead Greenwood or any baptism to account for that James Greenwood.

Betty also had a son William. You got his marriage certificate and it gave his father as Henry. There are a couple of possible matching baptism records, in Oldham.

She also had a daughter Hannah, born abt 1839. You did not get the possible birth certificates to see what they said for parents' names. Mistake, if that's right, I think.

The censuses for these various people are summarized in a post of mine about midway on page 4, 5th Sep 2008.


I've been poking about at pilot.familysearch and not finding much of anything to confirm or deny my theory. ;)


One interesting tidbit, given the tendency of men to name their first son after their father:

Name: Richard Greenwood
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Oct 1809
> Baptism/Christening Place: Shaw Chapel, Oldham, Lancashire, England
> Father's Name: James Greenwood
Mother's Name: Jane
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04743-2 **
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545708
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

** again submitted?

I wonder whether the lancs opc site would have anything on these various records.


There's still absolutely no reason for me to like those people, I just do. ;)



I note the person Tracey has added above, in 1851:

GREENWOOD, James Lodger Unmarried M 21 1830 Fustian Dresser Jy'man (born) Crompton Lancashire
Address: 33, Cook Street, Manchester County: Lancashire


and I add:

William Greenwood son of Betty Whitehead Greenwood was a fustian cutter on his marriage certificate and the family was from Crompton.


1841 census (see back on page 4)

Betty Greenwood 30 - washerwoman
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35 - cotton weaver
James Whitehead 40 - "
John Whitehead 40 - "
Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
> Sub-registration district: Crompton


1851 census (see back on page 4):

Betty Greenwood 42 - Washerwoman
> William Greenwood 15 - Cotton Fustian Cutter
(daughter Hannah is elsewhere)
> Civil Parish: Crompton
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Royton


1861 census (see back to page 3)

Name: William Greenwood
> Fustian Cutter (employing 10)
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England
> Civil Parish: Crompton


So Tracey's one James in 1851 is my James from 1841, I'd think quite certainly.

KB how are you?

I have spent a lot of time on this in the last year.

I even went to Manchester and looked at the 'lost' Manchester 1851 census and found no James Greenwoods of the correct age.

It's almost anniversary time. ;)

Friday evening, big week of work, and the government fell here a few hours ago!

I might just revisit James this weekend for a lark ...

I spent weeks looking for apprentice records in Lancashire and Bilston in local records office but found no James Greenwoods.

If any one has any more ideas it would be appreciated.

Apprenticeship records could be your best bet, or even some records at Lancs RO for the fustian Dresser work...

Like you say someone must ahve sponsored him..... you never know he might have been part of a well known firm in Staffordshire and they kpt good records. It's a skilled job so there is a very good chance.

Have you also tried the London Gazette and the Times online, there might be a mention of his apprenticeship completion?



Tracey x

Tracey

You are right I do need to go to the original records.
Something may exist that leads me back to Lancashire.
The census records confuse rather than help.

Who knows I might find something.

Thanks for your help

If it's any help you might want to contact the William Salt Library and see if James Greenwood completed his apprenticeship there in Staffordshire as a boiler maker.

I would imagine there was a union he was a member of, or there may well have been apprentice lists he's on.

It would also be worth going through the local records at some point to see where he lived before the 1861 census.

There is a very good chance with him being fully qualified and in a respectable job he's listed on the local census's.


Tracey x

I agree he was a young man who for some reason travelled a 100 miles to find work, escape from the law.

I can't believe Cosley, Bilston was any more pleasant to live than Salford in 1851 or Crompton / Bolton in 1841.

I guess we will never know the reason of how he found himself in Cosely or who funded his apprentice.

It will be almost impossible to link any James on the 1851 to the 1861 James.

3 different places of birth on 3 census records does not help.

Boilermaking would have been a glamorous new trade in the 1850's. Highly skilled and a very responsible job. Peoples lives depended on the boiler being built well.
There were many boilermakers in Manchester such as Galloways in Manchester but Bilston was also a Boilermaking area.
All steam powered mills would have boilers and there were 1000's of mills and works across the UK.

James son James moved to Manchester after his father died to work as a cycle repairman and the an electro plater.
Henrietta moved with him.

Journeymen are usually the hardest to pin down because they have a habit of being in a different place for each census!

I would suggest your man being an impressionable young man and fiding himself in Staffordshire for whatever reason, has done what most people did there and found an industrial job. Maybe he was lucky and found a mentor that was working in that trade?

Maybe he arrived in Staffordshire becuase of the Faustian Dresser work, and ended up changing trades. I can imagine boiler making while possibly more dangerous may have made him more money?


Tracey x

1841 Bolton

Right age
Right place as per later census

All with no father to check against. grrr

Tracey

Just for everyone's knowledge of the term journeyman

A man who served his apprenticeship in a trade and worked as a fully qualified employee. The term originated in the regulations of the medieval trade guilds; it derives from the French journée (‘a day’) because journeymen were paid daily.

Each guild normally recognized three grades of worker – apprentices, journeymen, and masters. As a qualified tradesman, a journeyman might have become a master with his own business but most remained employees.

Both James on the 1851 are possibles both from the area I suspect James 1832? was from.

Can you trace the two James on the 1841 census?

Both those would be a big step to the 1861 where James was married to Henrietta and working as a boilerman.

Thanks for your help

I can't for the life of me find my original find..... i do however have a feeling it wasn't as a Greenwood, but as another surname his mother had inherited.

I have found this in 1841....

1841 RG number: HO107 Piece: 535 Book/Folio: 2/39 Page: 31
Address: Duncan Street, Bolton, Bolton, Great County: Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GREENWOOD, Sarah F 40 1801 Lancashire
GREENWOOD, David M 20 1821 Lancashire
GREENWOOD, Benjamin M 15 1826 Lancashire
GREENWOOD, Mary F 15 1826 Lancashire
GREENWOOD, James M 10 1831 Lancashire
KNIGHT, Ellis M 24 1817 Lancashire
KNIGHT, Eliza F 20 1821 Lancashire
KNIGHT, James M 0 (6 months) 1841 Lancashire

A possible for the 1851?


1851 RG number: HO107 Piece: 2240 Folio: 0 Page: 0
Address: North Moor, Oldham-Below-Town County: Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WINTERBOTTOM, John Head Married M 36 1815 Cotton Spinner Oldham Lancashire
WINTERBOTTOM, Jane Wife Married F 34 1817 Illegible Oldham Lancashire
WINTERBOTTOM, Elizabeth Dau Unmarried F 9 1842 Scholar Oldham Lancashire
GREENWOOD, James Son Unmarried M 14 1837 Cotton Piecer Oldham Lancashire
OGDEN, Betty Wife Married F 49 1802 Illegible Oldham Lancashire

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the guy you have found working as a Fustian dresser, but also lists him as a journeyman! So maybe he has travelled down?

As for the boiler making, Bilston is almost the industrial heart of the area. Coal mines, metal workers, gunsmiths... Boiler making could have been something he trained in once he got to Staffordshire, as a journeyman he may well have had different reasons for arriving than those he chose when he got there!


1851 RG number: HO107 Piece: 2223 Folio: 0 Page: 0
Address: 33, Cook Street, Manchester County: Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LAKE, William Head Married M 50 1801 Manchester Lancaster
LAKE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 49 1802 Salford Lancaster
LAKE, Jane Dau Unmarried Salford Lancaster
LAKE, Janet Dau Married F 21 1830 Salford Lancaster
LAKE, Elizabeth Dau Married F 12 1839 Salford Lancaster
LAKE, William Son Unmarried M 10 1841 Salford Lancaster
LAKE, Mary Ann Dau Unmarried F 6 1845 Salford Lancaster
GREENWOOD, James Lodger Unmarried M 21 1830 Fustian Dresser Jy'man Crompton Lancashire


Trac

it's ok i am trying to refresh myself as i go!

T x

Tracey

Very interesting.

Ok a little more on the marriage i had found.

Ref No 43/0442
25 Nov 1860 James Greenwood 28 b x Boiler maker Bilston,St.Leonards (Father) Michael Greenwood Farmer

&

Henrietta Attwood 26 w Bilston,St.Leonards (Father) William Goodway Carpenter

Witness's
William Keen & Catharine Goodway

Vicar
H.Housman

ChurchSt.Peters


Have we mentioned before Henrietta was a widow?


Tracey x

I'm here....i'm here!!


Tracey x

Bumping this one up to nudge Wayne Tracey.

In a pleasant nice way of course but I would love to know about the widow in Lancashire with a son called James on the 1841.

I lost this thread along time ago, disapeared into the ether that is GR

I have been on weird shifts all week, but i'm off this weekend, so will look at my notes and see what i found again.


Regards

Tracey x

Hi Tracey and Janey

I would love to crack this one.

If there was a widowed farmer with a 9 year old son called James can you please find her again.

Thanks

Simon