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Calling all Hill/Monck fans!

I did a tree search last night. Either I hadn't done one in quite some time, or there was a recent addition.

I found someone who looked like she might be related to a child of Ada Lennox Monck Hill / Ada Lennox Monck, sister of old Ernest.

!!!!! The two children I've never been able to find a trace of after 1901 (the one in the census) and 1907 (the one who was in South Africa writing letters looking for his father). My grandfather's first cousins.

I sent off a PM.

I got an answer!! The person in question (a relation of the tree owner's wife) has said she believes we are connected! I have just emailed her!

Yes, yes, I'm gobsmacked. After these several years, I may have found family of weird Ernest's equally mysterious sister Ada the actress.

No doubt this new person will know precisely as much about her ancestors as the descendant of Ernest's other sister Emma did -- i.e. zip. But with luck, I will have the solution to the mystery of the disappearing Hill/Monck/Coke/McCock-s!!

Stay tuned, and try to remember to breathe. ;)

And a reply from Bosleys re medals of R M McCock, son of Ada Lennox Monck Hill/Monck, sister of Ernest Augustus Hill/Monck:

"The medal formed part of a deceased collector's estate, your email has been forwarded to the purchaser who may or may not respond."

So no family connection for the most recent owner before the auction.

We shall see!

Keep us posted please :-))

Done and dusted, mgnv - email sent to Bosleys through their website.

Thanks for prodding me!

mgnv - I actually only just noticed that the auction house is shown on that web page!

I'd been considering heading on over to Kevin Asplin's place and asking advice, but now, duh, I will do what you suggest for sure.

As you say, most likely the interest was in the pieces rather than the person -- but it's possible that the seller was an actual relation!



All expressions of condolences and venom gratefully received. ;)

................... but par for the course for this family Janey!

Have you tried contacting the auction house. Whilst it's probable the buyer was interested in the medals, they might possibly have been interested in their recepitant.

Yes, we should travel back in time and burn HER at the stake!!! grrrrrrr

Yuppers, isn't that just the icing on the cake?

Ernest travels the seven seas, clutching his case of documents, and 60 years - seriously - after he deserted in India, his daughter-in-law burns them all.

Oh, for a time machine. If not to catch her before the act, at least to throttle her.

Her family was prominent in the community where the Moncks first settled in Ontario (two Monck brothers married two Hayward sisters, and that family was no late arrival on the Canadian scene), and I can only assume she read what was there, saw the potential for social scandal, and lit the match.

Always love reading about the Monck/Hill/whatever saga. It was nice to have a refresher.

Ozi.

Blahdy hell, the papers were burnt?!! Arrrghhhh. Well the saga continues and I continue to enjoy reading it. :-)

mgnv! I just saw your post here. I was gone for a while ...

That's always a possibility, esp. with these people - mistranscription is their middle name. ;) But then that would leave the younger daughter unaccounted for.

I think it's most likely that Isa/Ada Hill/Monck (born Ada Hill 1872) stayed home, since she was in the 1891 census, and died in Kent in 1892 (as Isa Ada Monck), when Ernest et al. were apparently still in Australia.


The info about Erna Augusta Monch -- I'd had to wait forever for the birth cert -- ordered it, waited patiently like a good little Canadian, after 3 months made an enquiry; turned out it had been lost in the mail somehow. Quelle giant disappointment to discover that she really was Erna Augusta MONCH and totally unrelated.


But here's the big news -- why Ernest Hill changed his surname, if not why he changed it to Monck.

My mother's oldest awfulest cousin's son got in touch with my mum last year. His mum had been a young teenager when Ernest lived with her family in Canada. She was apparently his confidante.

The reason for the name change? (She knew nothing about the name change, she just unwittingly knew the reason for it. I had discovered the name change, and didn't know the reason.)

He had deserted from the British military in India after 5 years' service, when he was told that instead of being discharged he was being sent to Afghanistan. He lived the rest of his life -- right up to his death in Canada decades later -- in fear. He had nightmares all his life about the old Queen coming to get him.

The second Anglo-Afghan war began in 1879. Ernest's first wife died in 1873. The time frame is right for him joining up, serving 5 years, deserting.

In 1881 he appears in the census in Cheshire as Ernest Monk. That same year, the city directory lists his mother (Sarah Emma [Bond] Hill) as Emma Monck. (Since her second name is given in censuses, I assume she went by that name - still no marriage ever found. Another wonderful GR member went to the local library and found that for me.) I can only assume that she changed her name for reasons having to do with her children - Ernest and his daughter, who were living with her, and Ada, living not far away with her husband and kids.

Ernest's sister, Ada Lennox Monck Hill (as baptised and registered), had married as Monck in 1875. That's the part still unexplained -- it was presumably long before Ernest needed a new name. Her husband, Charles Coke, was likely also in India. In 1881 they are in Cheshire on 50 acres with 8 domestic servants, 4 of whom are grooms. In 1891 Ada has disappeared and her husband has his own new surname, MacCock, and newer younger wife, and the three kids, and is claiming to have been born in Scotland, with the wife and kids born in Canada, all untrue, except possibly for the wife about whom I can find nothing. Huh, I had always thought: gambling!

Well, the lovely GR member who found me his son's Anglo-Boer war military papers at Kew also found the father's 1883 bankruptcy for me. Seems I was probably right. Came into his inheritance a couple of years after the 1875 marriage, had lost it 3 or 4 years later.

Oh, and here's the drag:

http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/militaria-
7th-coy-imperial-yeomanry-four-clas-1-c-mj2dmqn7ot

Lot 388 :
Description:
[ Militaria ] 7th Coy Imperial Yeomanry four clasp Queenis South Africa Medal. Awarded to 23627 Pte. R.M. McCock 7th Coy Imp Yeo with clasps Cape Colony, Rhodesia, Orange Free State, Transvaal.

Sold at auction in 2004. Before I knew that Henry John Rossiter Monro Coke (Rossiter Munro McCock), son of Ada Lennox Monck Hill, my gr-grf Ernest's sister I'd never heard of, existed.


Ernest apparently kept a case of papers that he carried with him everywhere. Presumably, that held all the keys to everything. When he died, one of my mum's uncles' wives burned it.


So ... I have a pretty good idea of who these people were now, and have found some of the hows and whys, but I'm still on the trail!

Re Lew's 25th November 2007 03:11 post, mentioning an
Unassisted Immigration to Victoria of MONCK ISA Age 5.

Have you seen the original entry? I'm wondering if her a=5 is a mistranscription of a=15.

aaaaaawwwwwwwww


and it was looking hopeful!




but it's par for the course for this family!!!

I'm just putting this here for my own self (and of course any Monck / Hill / Coke / McCock cousins who wander by), so everybody else can ignore me.

Someone dredged up an ooold thread last night about South African genealogy.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=884028

So I gave it a whirl.

http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm


I've always wondered whether Henry Rossiter John Monro Coke / Rossiter M. McCock ended up in South Africa. I even bought a used novel on line from a South African children's charity written by an author named McCock, but it gave no clues. I didn't have any idea of where to go looking, and I pretty much didn't lift a finger to find out.

And now -- I have just done a search at the SA site and found:

RM MCCOCK, CAPE TOWN. ASKS FOR INFORMATION REGARDING CM MCCOCK (1907)

Rossiter Monro McCock asks for information about, undoubtedly, Charles Monro McCock, presumably his father's most recent incarnation.

I have yet to figure out this one:

RETIEF, VIOLET LOUISA. (FORMERLY MCCOCK, BORN STAPLEY). BORN IN DURBAN, NATAL. SSP JOHN JAMES RETIEF. DECEASED ESTATE. (1970)

but I know it has to relate somehow, because HRJMC/McC's sister who died at 16 was named Violet Louie (Louise?) Lennox McCock (no birth record ever found, names taken from death reg/census).

Now I have something else to get hold of, if I can figure out how that's done ...



edited later to add:

Erna Augusta Monch
Father: Emil Monch
Mother: Frances Ka Otta (who registered the birth)

The marriage is:

Marriages Jun 1884
Otta Franziska Whitechapel 1c 743
Monch Gustav Emil Whitechapel 1c 74[39]

You can just see her registering the birth, standing there saying:

Not Frances! FranzisKA! FranzisKA!

until somebody caught on, sort of. Frances Ka.

Purest coincidence! Not any relation to my Ernest Augustus Monck, and sorely disappointed I am

pmsl and the story continues ....

Can't wait to hear more!

Lew x

Lew -- I figure you'll see this when you check your threads -- I have yet another reason to thank you for all this! The date of the Moncks' emigration is proving to be of particular significance in light of something I just discovered.

I was just demonstrating the mistranscription problem to someone as being the bane of having an unusual name. I figured I'd do an exact search of the births database to see how many Moncks have been transcribed (327), and then check a couple of possible mistranscriptions. Sure enough, there are Moucks. So I tried Mouch. (Neither of these is a name, they're all just Moncks mistranscribed.)

Now let's review first! This is what you found me: my Moncks, Ernest Augustus Monck with wife and two children, travelled to Australia:

Arrived APR 1887

So ............ in the English births index, we have:

Erna Augusta Mouch
1887 Jul-Aug-Sep
London City

followed in the deaths index by:

Erna Augusta Monch
abt 1887
1887 Oct-Nov-Dec
London City

Now how likely is it that someone other than my Ernest Augustus Monck would be naming a kid Erna Augusta Monck? In 1891 there were fewer than 60 Moncks of all ages in the London area (not counting any mistranscribed ones I haven't found, of course).

Welll, somebody must have. Because my Ernest Augustus Monck and his wife were in Australia when Erna Augusta Monck was born in London.

Now there's a certificate that has to be got, just as soon as I make that payment on the Visa! The mystery just deepens ...

For Suzi-Wong and the general fascinated reading public. ;)


Surname McCock.

It's actually a made-up name -- the person in question was Charles Henry Coke, born Neath 1856, whose ancestor (I think it was last his gr-grfather) was a Cock in Scotland before migrating to Wales where the family became rich and prominent (father was Portreeve, uncle controlled the copper trade).

He married Ada Lennox Monck, born/baptized Ada Lennox Monck Hill, Linkinhorne 1854, sister of good old Ernest here. In 1881 they were gentleman farming in the 50-acre pile in Cheshire with the 8 domestic servants and the 2 of their 3 kids then born (in Berkshire and Cheshire). Ada disappeared after the 1882 birth of the third, probaby consumed by the consumption that seems to have done most of the family in, although I've never found a death record under any of the multiple possible names.

In 1891 Charles showed up (after months of me searching for him) as Charles MacCock in Somerset, minus wife Ada, with a newer younger model wife, Clare reported born 1865 in Canada, his 3 kids from the first marriage falsely reported to have been born in Canada, and surname MacCock. No marriage ever found, in England or Canada. (Who knows, maybe he, with or without Ada, went to Canada for a few years ... in the 1880s ... but she doesn't seem to have died in Ontario, at least.)

The three kids subsequently appeared (one death in 1896, one 1901 census, one in the Imperial Yeomanry/Boer War circa 1901) as McCock, the daughter Jessie in the 1901 census claiming to have been born in Scotland.

No trace of the surviving children --

Jessie Frances Ada Monro Coke aka McCock
born 1881 Cheshire
Henry Rossiter John Monro Coke aka Rossiter M. McCock
born 1879 Berkshire

-- has ever been found. Except for the possibility of a Miss McCock who travelled to Portland, Maine, in 1901, en route to Canada, shown as aged 21 (Jessie would have been 20). My gr-grfather Ernest emigrated in 1909. No trace of this Miss McCock in any Ontario BMDs or 1911 Cdn census.

In all likelihood, and with my luck, HRJM Coke/McCock was killed in the Boer War and Jessie died of tuberculosis before reaching the Canadian border ...

Lew has managed to make old Ernest even more annoying than he already was ... he seems to have decided to call all his daughters Isa, no matter what they were registered as, and I have no idea where that name even came from! He had a sister who died in childhood whose name is difficult to read everywhere it appears, but seems to be Ida Jane, not Isa.

Hell, maybe his real mother was Isa. You know, the one who had a liaison with the blacksheep brother etc. ... and then left her kids to be registered and reared by a Devon/Cornwall family ...

& much luck we had!!

Hope you find your outgoing Moncks/Hills.

Ozi.