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Wow, Janey! Big breakthrough on brother William. How lucky is that?

Well done,

Ozi

Hey, you're the one who sneered at me for not using that site to find that birth in Ireland -- I'm the newbie! It doesn't do that for me. It *likes* me!


Name: William Stephen H H Hill
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 394

Right, no wonder I couldn't find it by looking for wife's surname Lea: Harriet Lea Edge.

But I'm still not finding 'em in 1881. And why not, duh, here they are:


Name: William Hill
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1852 (lies, beyond the parametres I'd allowed for)
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriet
Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire

Street Address: 11 Sarah St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Labourer General

Registration district: Salford

William Hill 29
Harriet Hill 21
Hannah Hill 5


A *labourer*?? With his sister married to a really rich guy (albeit bankrupt two years after this census) and his father rich enough to be bankrupt 12 years earlier? And a pretentious name like that? ;)


Sadly, it seems that Florence Emma Bond Hill didn't survive. I wonder about Ernest Augustus Hore Hill ...

Nope.

Births Jun 1881
HILL Ernest Augustus H Salford 8d 163
Deaths Sep 1881
Hill Ernest Augustus H 0 Salford 8d 67


Hannah Hill aged 5 in 1881 ... born before the marriage ... to him, or Harriet?

And I am off to Somerset tomorrow,how lucky is that...Tee hee....

Ooops best be nice to Janey ,Fanny,need a question answered please..

How do I get familyrecord search to stay on Welsh births or marriages when using it please?
It keeps going back to full worldwide stuff.....

So - my absence may not have been noted, but for a few days I've been going nuts at the pilot.familysearch thing. (I'm late come to it because early on it was images and it was all Flash and I gave up.) I've been finding Barnard/Castles ... no luck with Cooper/Smiths ... but I've just taken another shot at Hill/Moncks ... and ... I just did a blanket search for given name Hoare, surname Hill.

To refresh our memories, Ernest Augustus Monck was born Ernest Augustus Hill 1851 Cornwall, parents Sarah Emma Bond and Frances Hoare Hill. Older brother William Stephen Hill was born 1843 Devon.

OMG OMG! Ernest's big brother William, last seen as a teenager in Plymouth in 1861, didn't succumb young to the family plague, TB (or go to Australia), he lived on in England!!!!


Name: Florence Emma Bond Hill
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Feb 1880
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: William Stephen Hoare Hill
Mother's Name: Harriett Lea
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


My Firefox is fixing to crash. I shall reboot it and come back. ;)


And I'm back, and apparently it wasn't me; it was FreeBMD (and FreeREG) going down just as I searched for the specifics of William's birth. I killed 'em, I guess.

So. I have William having a child in Salford in 1880. Well, his wife doing it, anyhow.

And OMG. It's so lucky they all named their children for one another in that family.

Name: Ernest Augustus Hore Hill
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 25 May 1881
Baptism/Christening Place: Chapelry of St. Clement, Ordsall-in-Salford, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: William Stephen Hore Hill
Mother's Name: Harriet
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


!!!

I'm off to the censuses. If he is the "William H H Hill" I've looked at in censuses in the past and thought I had found reason to discount, I am going to kick myself hard.

Now, now Janey don't tie the knickers into macrame knots. If you make these statements you must consider the repercussions.

And why would anyone ever envisage your threads as a free for all. Tut, tut!! They are, they are, well a reasonable description fails me at this early hour of the morning.

And, even if our Ernest Hill ancestors are not one and the same, the degree of separation has to be very slight. What, there can't be more than ummmmm two or three hundred from which to choose.

Ha, whaddaya know, not just a banker but a bank owner. ;) Thanks, Reece!

I have tentative ideas about my Hore/Hoar/Hoares of Cornwall, and they seem to be long-rooted there. I have them back into the 1700s - what I theorize are mine, anyhow - all this based only on the middle name of the two boys born c1820, which I assume is their mother's surname, and on the area of Cornwall where my Hills lived. Any connection with the bankers would be way back in the mists of time if at all, I think! I've read a bit on the surname, and the banking Hoares might be a variant of Haw (that being one pronunciation of Hoare). I expect the two family origins are quite separate.


AuntyS ... I didn't mean I would kill myself trying! I meant I would still be trying when I go to my grave, if you haven't solved it by then. I did do Charles Carter, remember, pat pat polish polish.

Now stop turning my thread into a free-for-all. You can't have my Ernest Hill! ;)

Hello -

I always read any post with Australia mentioned -

re Francis Hoare - the "wealthy" family is the family who own the Bank- they have an archivist - don't know if this is of any help and you probably know this anyway.

Good hunting!

Reece

And exactly how does one respond to such an offer?? Hmmm let me see!!

Oh no Janey you don't have to go to that length!
I'll dance on your grave should you succeed!!
A simple, "I'll try to find him" should be enough!
There will be a large gathering at the sad occasion.
I'd like to say I'd reciprocate the offer, but you are so far ahead of me with your Hilly Moncks I think I'm safe for a while.

And I can think of a few more however politeness and the GR T&C restrict my verbal diarrhoea.

Let's wait see what Souf 'ampton 'as to say on the matter.


Sorry, forgot the obvious ones:

Is that an offer I can't refuse?
Would you like some more time to think that over??

cried Alice

Curioser and curioser.

For the curious -- AuntyS has, believe it or not, a mystery gr-grfather named Ernest Hill. ;)

I found mine, I swear I will find hers or die trying!

When I saw it I did a search for Francis H and noted there was plenty of choice. Oh well was worth an ask. You never know.

I've just been in contact with these people

T. McD
Archival Assistant
Maritime History Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NL
A1C 5S7

about my Frederick Hill and have been advised to contact the Southampton Archives research team and ask my questions.

I wait with crossed fingers and toes.

Now that's interesting. My FHH certainly was married to his middle name - he used it in most records of him.

"Ref: D/X 903/15,16 — 9 June 1884.
(1) Edward John Coleman of Stoke Park, [Co. Bucks.], gent. ;
(2) Dame Emilie Scott of Sundridge Park [Co. Kent]; Edward Packe of Bromley, [Co. Kent], esq.; Herbert Henry Walford of London, esq.; and **Francis Hoare of London**.
Mortgage by (1) to (2) of share nos. 1, 2, 3, 9 and 15 in the Pelton Colliery Company. Consideration: £66,000. Attached: letter of notification of even date from Messrs. Walfords, 27 Bolton Street, Piccadilly, London, to Edward, Lord Dunsany of Dunsany Castle, Ireland"


Actually, FHH died in 1875

Deaths Dec 1875
HILL Francis Hoare 54 St. Olave 1d 118

(not a death cert I've bothered to get)

And you'd be amazed how common these names are. I thought maybe this could have been a deed executed some time before that record of it, but I did a search and I think the FH in question would probably be this one in 1881:

Name: Francis Hoare
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Eugenia
Where born: Hampstead, Middlesex, England
>> Occupation: Banker J P
Civil parish: St John Hampstead

To be in a position to be lending at least part of £66,000 on a share mortgage, I think he's probably the man. ;) There is in fact a wealthy Hoare family that seems to be quite separate from the Hore/Hoar/Hoare-s in Cornwall.

Janey, Is it possible that your Francis Hoare Hill could have operated under the name of Francis Hoare. Given the name changing propensities of your ancestors??

I ask because I found this

http://www.dmm.org.uk/ro-coll/p001d.htm

Start at Ref: D/X 903/15,16 — 9 June 1884. And go down to 1891.

Yes it is a long way from London. There is also a Charles mentioned, it does concern mining and it is a while after his bankrupcy. Would also need to know if he was still alive at that time.

So the ranks of the Hill/Monck fan club have thinned, but I dawdle on. For my own information/amusement mostly, of course. ;)

I never really think of looking for my generally humble folk in official records of land and money dealings, but I've been surprised.

Susan# posted something from the London Gazette site in a thread on General the other day, prodding me to go back and have a browse. The excellent GR member Ann had found me a record there a while back of Ernest's brother-in-law Charles Henry Coke/McCock (husband of Ada the Actress Hill/Monck, and father of Rossiter Munro McCock who remained in South Africa) going bankrupt in 1883, confirming my suspicions re his name change. Scottish pride my eye.

Four or five years ago, another great helper at the Devon Family History Society board had found me a record at the National Archives site, of Ernest's father Francis Hoare Hill having a draft mine lease:

Draft licence for 21 years to work minerals. Thos. {Thomas?} Tristram Spry Carlyon of Tregrehan, esq., to Francis Hoare Hill of Finsbury, Mddx., and Sam. {Samuel?} Sandoe Bice of St. Blazey, mine agent. Menagwins and Tregorrick.. [Cornwall Record Office, Date: 1859.]

(Samuel Bice is the one who spawned Sir John George Bice of Australia.)

In 1861 Ernest and sibs were with mother in Plymouth, mother "wife of mining agent". Father nowhere to be found. (Australia??) I assumed estrangement at that point. In 1871 sibs Ada and James are with mother in London, on Broad Street, father is with new "wife", whom he marries July 1871, and child in Islington.

So I tried the London Gazette for Francis Hoare Hill, and lo and behold, who went bankrupt in 1868?

Francis Hoare Hill, late of Old Broad Street, now of Finsbury Street, Finsbury -- share dealer.

I'm doomed to financial incompetence (and yes, I'm financially incompetent). This is my mum's side of the family, Francis was her grandfather. On my dad's side, his father was a stockbroker (share dealer!) of sorts in the 40s and 50s in Canada, and went bust more than once I believe, in addition to doing a bit of jail time ... all over a misunderstanding, of course ...

I've been very wise to pay no attention to the stock market in my entire life, I do believe!

So don't forget the London Gazette

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk

You never know what you might find!

I just want to put on record in this thread my great appreciation of Lew's contribution to this site and to my search for old Ernest's secrets in particular.

Lew died last week of cancer. I hope she had a chance to peek in here sometime in the last few months and get another giggle.


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1186953

Oh Janey, Now where on earth did I get Davies from. Don't even have them in my tree. OK correct name noted. My apologies. Don't mind muddying the waters a little, complete idiocy is inexcusable.

So the outcome was fair to middle-ing and best of all I dont have to search for anything or look anything up.....

Tsk, Viv! I started out looking for the passage of Ernest & Annie to Australia - before 1890 so couldn't look on FMP myself. Since then, it's been pure entertainment!

I was looking for descendants of Ernest's sibs. I've now found one for each of his sisters, Mary Emma and Ada (the Actress). (Of his surviving brothers, James died in 1873, probably childless, and I haven't been able to trace his widow; William disappeared after 1861 and the TB probably got him too.) I had hoped they might be able to shed some light on the Hill family, and the switch by Ernest and Ada to surname Monck.

The descendant of Mary Emma had never heard the name Hill. She had always been told that Mary Emma Hill, born 1843 in Jersey per the censuses, was a Miss Montmorency born in France.

The descendant of Ada the Actress had never heard the name Hill, or Monck. She knows of her gr-grfather Charles Henry Coke/McCock, but has been told his name was Vivian Charles Frederick Cock and seems never to have heard anything of his wife, her gr-grmother, my Ernest's sister. (She was told that Ada's other surviving child, Jessie, married twice and died in childbirth in the US in 1929, unlikely since she was born in 1881, and I can't find either marriage.)

So there I am! My holy grail has been found -- a descendant for each of the sibs who likely had offspring. And I am not one iota the wiser. ;)

Gotta get my uncle to spit on a stick and find out just what Ernest was, I guess! - Hill, Monck, or ... ?


Oh, and AuntyS, you stop muddying the waters, now. Davies?? Ernest Augustus's wife was Annie Dennis, but yup, there's no shortage of them either.

May I ask a question which may be bewilderingly obvious. However being an asker of many questions, mostly daft, and the rest answerable by yes or no, here goes....

I take it you have searched for the birth of Ernest Ross Monck under his mother's maiden name.

There is no birth certificate to be had. His age is being calculated from his age at death in WW1. It is suspected that he may have been on the way when mother and father married. What if he was born a year earlier in 1882 or 1883 and registered under his mothers name.

I said I was probably stating the gollygosh obvious but I have skimmed through the fine print a couple of times without success.

Oh and if you decide to search Ernest Ross Monck under Ernest R. Davies, good luck. There a confounded lot of them to be looked at.