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Terrific! What a surprise to see this thread pop up with that message! How did you run across this thread?!

Yes, Broad Street it was, and yes, I've noted that tavern when looking at the census page.

Ah, the website you mention -- yes, it's the image archive in the US. I bought a digital copy of the image. (I was using it as my avatar on the GenesReunited Facebook page for a while. -edit May 2011 - and it's currently my avatar here.)

The info about her acting roles comes from another site that has records of the 1870-1871 season at the Adelphi -- again, the happy coincidence for me that her short-lived acting career coincided with a census.

At least, that site has made the same assumption I did when I found the Adelphi info -- that the picture and the actress in the cast are the same people.

Unfortunately, when I asked ever so nicely whether I could get info from that institution in the US about what might be on the back of that calling card, I got brushed off very summarily. I was eventually put in touch with an archivist there who promised to get back to me, and never did. Apparently just looking at the back of one of the items in their collection is some huge deal of an ordeal for them. I do think the date they have for the photo is well off, and that's one of the things I wanted to try to check out from anything written on it.

I still haven't found any record of Ada after the 1882 birth of her third child. The birth of the second child, late 1880, wasn't registered at all, but there's a baptism record at pilot.familysearch I think.

Anyhow, what fun, ancestors who were such close neighbours! The other occupant of 58 was a theatrical manager, so I guess it was an interesting neighbourhood.

Your ancestor's pub was at 56. My people were at 58.

Number 57 was the St Giles Workhouse. ;)

I've assumed that Broad St in 1871, in the district described as

Part of Broad Street South side from corner of Endell (?) St to Drury Lane ___
Part of Drury Lane West Side to Shorts Gardens ___ part of Shorts Gardens North side to Endell Street, part of Endell St east side from Shorts Gardens to Broad St

is what is now Broad Court, which google maps shows me.

Lovely bit of history, thank you!

Hello Janey,

Have a look at Gen..i St Giles and St George Workhouse, Church of England, Holborn.....

Click on Old Maps as there are two there of interest, particularly the 1874 one where you can see the area you mention. Broad Court is a bit too far along I think. Quite a lot of changes of course since I think it would have suffered bombing during WW2. My father was a patient in Endell Street Hospital as a wounded soldier in WW1. That too, has a very interesting history and worth looking up.

I have looked through the Hoare family history(I am closely connected by marriage) but could not find any reference to your Francis Hoare Hill. I wonder where the name came from - did you find out?

I am a bit out of touch but hope this is of some interest.

Best wishes.
Reece

Reece, sorry, I left this tab open and forgot to post my reply!

(I also feel sheepish every time I add to it and bump it -- and I'm afraid if I do it too often it will prompt people to start deleting their posts to banish it from their "My threads" list and I don't want that to happen!)

I hadn't realized the area would have been bombed during the war. I'm playing with the maps ...

Ada the Actress was married at the Chapel Royal of the Savoy, but I gather that isn't as grand as it sounds. ;)

For the Hoares, I'm quite convinced that the Cornwall batch (Hore, Hoar, Hoare) aren't connected with the others like the bankers.

Both Francis Hill 1819 (Ernest's father) and his brother Stephen Hill 1822, both born in Tamerton Foliat, Devon (or however that is spelled at any given time), had the middle name Hoar/Hoare at baptism. I suspect it was their mother Ann's surname, as in 1851 Francis and family were living in a cottage next to a farm owned by a Hore/Hoar family of the older generation, near Callington, Cornwall -- the widow of a brother of Ann is my surmise.

Thanks, all tidbits always welcome!

Well, it's prit-ty prit-ty slow around here, isn't it?

So I thought I might ask the honourary members of the Hill/Monck family their opinions.


Francis Hoare Hill, father of Ernest Augustus Hill/Monck, was baptised in Tamerton Folliat (Foliatt, Foliat, Folliatt ... ??) in 1819, son of James Hill and Ann. James is described on one son's baptism as gardener, and the other as ag lab.

In 1851 census Francis is with wife Sarah Emma and children in Cornwall.
In 1857 he is in London, with a mining lease option in Cornwall.
In 1868 daughter Anne Jane, with Mary Laidlaw, was born in Islington (birth cert).
In 1871 census he is with his new "wife" and child in Islington.
In 1871 July he married Mary Laidlaw in London C., claiming batchelor.
In 1875 he died in St Olave reg dist.
His place of birth was Tamerton in 1851 and Devonport in 1871.

Never been spotted in 1841 or 1861.

First known child Mary Emma Hill born, per censuses, c1843 St Helier, Jersey.
(A kind person at another site checked records there for her birth and parents' marriage, no luck.)
Children James 1846 and Stephen 1844 born Stoke Damerel (birth certs).

In 1861, wife (?) Sarah Emma (Bond) Hill is with the children in Plymouth, "married", wife of mining agent.
She's not to be found in 1841 either.
And no marriage ever found.


Sarah Emma (Bond) Hill is definitely in the 1881 census in Cheshire with Ernest and his first-marriage daughter, all as Monk (she is in 1881 local directory as Emma Monck), her as annuitant. (Income could have been arranged by wealthy son-in-law Coke, or by Francis.)

And no death after 1881 for Sarah/Emma Bond/Hill/Monk/Monck ...


So either Sarah Emma and Francis weren't married, or there was some bigamy going on in 1871.
I think Sarah Emma got paid off to go away.

When Francis went bankrupt, the 1868 notice said

late of Old Broad Street (Sarah Emma's address in 1871),
now of Finsbury Street (Francis was in Islington in 1871 with new "wife")

So ... estrangement before 1861, reconciliation after 1861, estrangement before 1871??


Anyway, blah blah repeat review.


My question.

It occurred to me
(my Wiltshire grx3 grf having been found in Scotland in 1841 when I'd looked for him in England for 5 years)

-- the Hill/Moncks having close ties to Wales through two daughters' marriages to men from there, reasonably assumed to be through Francis's copper trade connections with the Coke family --

Might Francis be in Wales in 1841?

It's a stupid question, really. It's just: whaddayathink? --


Name: Francis Hill
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
(not born in county)
occupation: traveller

Civil parish: St John and St Mary
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Registration district: Cardiff


The hoh is Inn Keeper, with way more servants than guests -- all guests called "traveller" so I think that's more a description than an occupation.


I don't know how Francis went from being son of an ag lab to having a mining lease option in 1857, being a mining agent / share dealer, and going bankrupt in 1868. Or what he might have been doing in the Channel Islands c1843 (no sign of him there in 1841) ... if Mary Emma Hill born there was in fact a Hill (no marriage to husband John Cheshire ever found, to verify father's name).

Francis is also missing in action in 1861.
(Note that I had mistaken identified him as Francis Hill in St Giles, but Ancestry index isn't updated yet to show deletion.)

Francis was presumably related by business with James Charles Coke, uncle of his daughter Ada the Actress's husband, since both were in the copper trade (JCC's descendants know nothing of my Coke/McCocks).
JCC was in Chile in the early-mid 1800s, and fathered a dynasty there.
JCC married in NSW in 1855 and is an historical personage in South Australia; he returned to England and married for the 3rd or 4th time).
JCC and his son had extensive business interests in Australia.
This all explains JCC's own absence from early censuses.

Perhaps Francis was in Australia ....... or Chile ....... perhaps bigamizing, himself ....... in 1861.
He doesn't seem to be in England or Wales or Scotland, anyhow.
(All the other Devon-born Francis Hills have been thoroughly investigated and discounted in 1861, as have various Francis Hills in London in 1861, and random Francis Hills elsewhere. He isn't Sampson Francis Hill, or Francis Lovis Hill ...)


My only other theory in 1841 -- which would explain the absence of a marriage to Bond -- is:


Name: Francis Hell [Francis Hill]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Where born: Devon, England
occupation: journeyman painter -- which seems most unlikely

Civil parish: Charles The Martyr
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Plymouth
Francis Hell 24
Elizabeth Hell 25
Elizabeth Hell 1 mo


The idea is that locating Francis in 1841 could help identify a marriage to Sarah Emma Bond someplace -- or why there was no marriage.
(All of this, of course, being related to: who was Ernest's real father? ;-) )

Of course, she is missing in 1841 too.
Her mother Sarah (Sibly) Bond is in Maker, Devon, in 1841, which is in St Stephens reg dist which is really Cornwall, and in Antony in 1851.


So this is for the really bored. Or just for me talking to myself. ;-)
Francis Hill in 1841 in Cardiff, who would know??

Oh yeah ...
Hill may be found in censuses at Ancestry as Hile, Hele, Hell.
Bond has been seen as Bone and Band.

Hi JC

I wish I could help, but if you armed with Ancestry and the internet with your lateral thinking mind can't find the records how can mere mortals like me.

Bump

Heh heh, I saw "last post Simon" and I thought Oh no, I sound like Simon now, don't I?!

Find My Relly! ;-)

Well, now old Ernest is in your "My threads" and you're stuck with him. (Not allowed to delete in *my* threads, you know!)

I do promise to add to the opus no more than the odd couple of times a year though, ordinarily ... as you can see from the date it started! So he shouldn't be too much of a pest.

I guess I'm going to clear my calendar and spend a day or two trying to see whether Francis Hill who is in Wales in 1841 turns up anyplace after that ... which is going to be difficult, not knowing his place of birth, just for starters. I like him for the job though, I must say!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/48544918?searchTerm=james charles coke&searchLimits=

Want to read about your rellies in Oz. Here you are, start with this one. I know you already know about it, however, while you are reading the digitized article you can correct it. It will save me a job. Don't worry you will get the hang of it after a few practises. A person with your laterall thinking............. won't have any problem.

Next one - don't forget the corrections

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49200883?searchTerm=james charles coke&searchLimits=

But wait there will be more.

Oh ha you will love this one

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49206173?searchTerm="james charles coke"&searchLimits=


There are many many more. But now I might turn my talents to Francis Hill. Might at least keep it in the family.

Heavens Janey, I was only playing around but look what I have found.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/32049358?q=%22james+charles+coke%22&c=collection


That collection is in my State library. Wouldn't imagine it would be available on line. Interested in the contents?????

PS Did a search for Francis Hill. You will know, given the name, 24 thousand Francis Hill types are in the papers for insolvency, death, drunkeness, court appearances, divorce, and a myriad of other reasons in just about every newspaper in Oz between 1850 and 1930. Tried a couple of middle names but no matches.

Interesting, AuntyS. A few years ago, I searched pretty thoroughly and found the James Coke park in Norwood, his historic home, his personal papers at the university there, etc., and put his descendants in Wales in touch with the historical and library people. Apparently the library materials run to a couple of boxes so it wasn't going to be feasible for them to get copies or anything.

That second one is interesting -- so it looks like July 1857 was when JC Coke left Australia, auctioning all his household contents before going. Including "several very useful horses". Maybe his nephew came by his affinity for the ponies, er, honestly. JCC had married only two years before. He married again in 1870 in Swansea. Wonder when/where/whether the Australian wife died.

I've received your Hilly images, and I'll give them a go.

But no, that text can stand uncorrected, by me, anyhow. ;)

Hmmm!! I need to visit library along with the LDS centre here. Might have a sickie next week and see what I can find out. I need to look at a marriage on an LDS microfilm I think has been mistranscribed and also some Australian convict muster lists at the library. Might as well add a request to view James Charles Coke's paperwork. They should be used to my strange requests by now.

Not on my account -- he was but one of the quite fascinating twisty sideroads to the Hill/Monck crew.

I contacted one of his descendants ages ago when I first joined GR and found the sister of JCC and Henry Simmons Coke, Charles Coke/McCock's father, in his tree. The generations are way out ... I think that although he's my age he's a couple of generations "younger", him being descended from the very first JCC marriage in Wales in the early 1800s. He had found a descendant of the last marriage, 1870, actually a granddaughter of JCC (I think my contact was a grx2 grandson, and younger than her). And she had been in touch, years before, with the Coke Cruz clan in Chile descended from JCC. My contact had suspected an Australian marriage, just on principle, and I did find it, plus the other stuff. (His own ancestor was abandoned by JCC in early childhood, although reared in a classy convent or some such.)

But he is, after all, merely the uncle of the husband of the sister of my gr-grfather. ;) -- unless, of course, he and my gr-grfather's (supposed) father Francis Hoare Hill were busy crossing paths somewhere. So unless you find FHH, no further reports on JCC need be sent!

Interesting to find this thread.....

I have a letter from a family member which reveals a connection with a Henry Simmons Coke. My ancestor, Lily Copus, married Henry in 1900 and "they went off to Chile". Would this have any connection to the family you're discussing here?

Julie

Hi Julie - Janey is not a member at the moment, though she may well come back some time

Ann


[I'll let her know that you have posted on her thread]

Hi all,

Looks like this thread hasn't been active for close to 6 years, so apologies (?) for reviving it! Not sure how many are still around, or how to contact them otherwise, but my email is [email protected] if anyone would care to contact me.

Charles Henry Coke?McCock was my Great-great-grandfather. His son Rossiter Munro McCock emigrated to South Africa with his wife Evelyn Finlay, and they had two sons, Cyril & Vivian. Cyril was the author of the two novels from the 1950s mentioned previously in this thread.

Cyril had two daughters, Naomi and Ruth. Janey, I believe my mother Naomi may be the person you contacted about a decade ago. Unfortunately, her health is failing and her recall is quite spotty. We are trying to piece together any information about the Coke/McCock family, and this thread has been incredibly helpful with giving specific names etc to research!

If anyone is at all interested in contacting me, I'd welcome it.

Thanks and regards,
Barbara

Hi Barbara .............

I have contacted Janey to let her know that you have posted on here.