Find Ancestors

So the ranks of the Hill/Monck fan club have thinned, but I dawdle on. For my own information/amusement mostly, of course. ;)

I never really think of looking for my generally humble folk in official records of land and money dealings, but I've been surprised.

Susan# posted something from the London Gazette site in a thread on General the other day, prodding me to go back and have a browse. The excellent GR member Ann had found me a record there a while back of Ernest's brother-in-law Charles Henry Coke/McCock (husband of Ada the Actress Hill/Monck, and father of Rossiter Munro McCock who remained in South Africa) going bankrupt in 1883, confirming my suspicions re his name change. Scottish pride my eye.

Four or five years ago, another great helper at the Devon Family History Society board had found me a record at the National Archives site, of Ernest's father Francis Hoare Hill having a draft mine lease:

Draft licence for 21 years to work minerals. Thos. {Thomas?} Tristram Spry Carlyon of Tregrehan, esq., to Francis Hoare Hill of Finsbury, Mddx., and Sam. {Samuel?} Sandoe Bice of St. Blazey, mine agent. Menagwins and Tregorrick.. [Cornwall Record Office, Date: 1859.]

(Samuel Bice is the one who spawned Sir John George Bice of Australia.)

In 1861 Ernest and sibs were with mother in Plymouth, mother "wife of mining agent". Father nowhere to be found. (Australia??) I assumed estrangement at that point. In 1871 sibs Ada and James are with mother in London, on Broad Street, father is with new "wife", whom he marries July 1871, and child in Islington.

So I tried the London Gazette for Francis Hoare Hill, and lo and behold, who went bankrupt in 1868?

Francis Hoare Hill, late of Old Broad Street, now of Finsbury Street, Finsbury -- share dealer.

I'm doomed to financial incompetence (and yes, I'm financially incompetent). This is my mum's side of the family, Francis was her grandfather. On my dad's side, his father was a stockbroker (share dealer!) of sorts in the 40s and 50s in Canada, and went bust more than once I believe, in addition to doing a bit of jail time ... all over a misunderstanding, of course ...

I've been very wise to pay no attention to the stock market in my entire life, I do believe!

So don't forget the London Gazette

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk

You never know what you might find!

Janey, Is it possible that your Francis Hoare Hill could have operated under the name of Francis Hoare. Given the name changing propensities of your ancestors??

I ask because I found this

http://www.dmm.org.uk/ro-coll/p001d.htm

Start at Ref: D/X 903/15,16 — 9 June 1884. And go down to 1891.

Yes it is a long way from London. There is also a Charles mentioned, it does concern mining and it is a while after his bankrupcy. Would also need to know if he was still alive at that time.

Now that's interesting. My FHH certainly was married to his middle name - he used it in most records of him.

"Ref: D/X 903/15,16 — 9 June 1884.
(1) Edward John Coleman of Stoke Park, [Co. Bucks.], gent. ;
(2) Dame Emilie Scott of Sundridge Park [Co. Kent]; Edward Packe of Bromley, [Co. Kent], esq.; Herbert Henry Walford of London, esq.; and **Francis Hoare of London**.
Mortgage by (1) to (2) of share nos. 1, 2, 3, 9 and 15 in the Pelton Colliery Company. Consideration: £66,000. Attached: letter of notification of even date from Messrs. Walfords, 27 Bolton Street, Piccadilly, London, to Edward, Lord Dunsany of Dunsany Castle, Ireland"


Actually, FHH died in 1875

Deaths Dec 1875
HILL Francis Hoare 54 St. Olave 1d 118

(not a death cert I've bothered to get)

And you'd be amazed how common these names are. I thought maybe this could have been a deed executed some time before that record of it, but I did a search and I think the FH in question would probably be this one in 1881:

Name: Francis Hoare
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Eugenia
Where born: Hampstead, Middlesex, England
>> Occupation: Banker J P
Civil parish: St John Hampstead

To be in a position to be lending at least part of £66,000 on a share mortgage, I think he's probably the man. ;) There is in fact a wealthy Hoare family that seems to be quite separate from the Hore/Hoar/Hoare-s in Cornwall.

When I saw it I did a search for Francis H and noted there was plenty of choice. Oh well was worth an ask. You never know.

I've just been in contact with these people

T. McD
Archival Assistant
Maritime History Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NL
A1C 5S7

about my Frederick Hill and have been advised to contact the Southampton Archives research team and ask my questions.

I wait with crossed fingers and toes.

For the curious -- AuntyS has, believe it or not, a mystery gr-grfather named Ernest Hill. ;)

I found mine, I swear I will find hers or die trying!

Curioser and curioser.

cried Alice

And exactly how does one respond to such an offer?? Hmmm let me see!!

Oh no Janey you don't have to go to that length!
I'll dance on your grave should you succeed!!
A simple, "I'll try to find him" should be enough!
There will be a large gathering at the sad occasion.
I'd like to say I'd reciprocate the offer, but you are so far ahead of me with your Hilly Moncks I think I'm safe for a while.

And I can think of a few more however politeness and the GR T&C restrict my verbal diarrhoea.

Let's wait see what Souf 'ampton 'as to say on the matter.


Sorry, forgot the obvious ones:

Is that an offer I can't refuse?
Would you like some more time to think that over??

Hello -

I always read any post with Australia mentioned -

re Francis Hoare - the "wealthy" family is the family who own the Bank- they have an archivist - don't know if this is of any help and you probably know this anyway.

Good hunting!

Reece

Ha, whaddaya know, not just a banker but a bank owner. ;) Thanks, Reece!

I have tentative ideas about my Hore/Hoar/Hoares of Cornwall, and they seem to be long-rooted there. I have them back into the 1700s - what I theorize are mine, anyhow - all this based only on the middle name of the two boys born c1820, which I assume is their mother's surname, and on the area of Cornwall where my Hills lived. Any connection with the bankers would be way back in the mists of time if at all, I think! I've read a bit on the surname, and the banking Hoares might be a variant of Haw (that being one pronunciation of Hoare). I expect the two family origins are quite separate.


AuntyS ... I didn't mean I would kill myself trying! I meant I would still be trying when I go to my grave, if you haven't solved it by then. I did do Charles Carter, remember, pat pat polish polish.

Now stop turning my thread into a free-for-all. You can't have my Ernest Hill! ;)

Now, now Janey don't tie the knickers into macrame knots. If you make these statements you must consider the repercussions.

And why would anyone ever envisage your threads as a free for all. Tut, tut!! They are, they are, well a reasonable description fails me at this early hour of the morning.

And, even if our Ernest Hill ancestors are not one and the same, the degree of separation has to be very slight. What, there can't be more than ummmmm two or three hundred from which to choose.

So - my absence may not have been noted, but for a few days I've been going nuts at the pilot.familysearch thing. (I'm late come to it because early on it was images and it was all Flash and I gave up.) I've been finding Barnard/Castles ... no luck with Cooper/Smiths ... but I've just taken another shot at Hill/Moncks ... and ... I just did a blanket search for given name Hoare, surname Hill.

To refresh our memories, Ernest Augustus Monck was born Ernest Augustus Hill 1851 Cornwall, parents Sarah Emma Bond and Frances Hoare Hill. Older brother William Stephen Hill was born 1843 Devon.

OMG OMG! Ernest's big brother William, last seen as a teenager in Plymouth in 1861, didn't succumb young to the family plague, TB (or go to Australia), he lived on in England!!!!


Name: Florence Emma Bond Hill
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Feb 1880
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: William Stephen Hoare Hill
Mother's Name: Harriett Lea
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


My Firefox is fixing to crash. I shall reboot it and come back. ;)


And I'm back, and apparently it wasn't me; it was FreeBMD (and FreeREG) going down just as I searched for the specifics of William's birth. I killed 'em, I guess.

So. I have William having a child in Salford in 1880. Well, his wife doing it, anyhow.

And OMG. It's so lucky they all named their children for one another in that family.

Name: Ernest Augustus Hore Hill
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 25 May 1881
Baptism/Christening Place: Chapelry of St. Clement, Ordsall-in-Salford, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: William Stephen Hore Hill
Mother's Name: Harriet
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


!!!

I'm off to the censuses. If he is the "William H H Hill" I've looked at in censuses in the past and thought I had found reason to discount, I am going to kick myself hard.

And I am off to Somerset tomorrow,how lucky is that...Tee hee....

Ooops best be nice to Janey ,Fanny,need a question answered please..

How do I get familyrecord search to stay on Welsh births or marriages when using it please?
It keeps going back to full worldwide stuff.....

Hey, you're the one who sneered at me for not using that site to find that birth in Ireland -- I'm the newbie! It doesn't do that for me. It *likes* me!


Name: William Stephen H H Hill
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 394

Right, no wonder I couldn't find it by looking for wife's surname Lea: Harriet Lea Edge.

But I'm still not finding 'em in 1881. And why not, duh, here they are:


Name: William Hill
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1852 (lies, beyond the parametres I'd allowed for)
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriet
Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire

Street Address: 11 Sarah St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Labourer General

Registration district: Salford

William Hill 29
Harriet Hill 21
Hannah Hill 5


A *labourer*?? With his sister married to a really rich guy (albeit bankrupt two years after this census) and his father rich enough to be bankrupt 12 years earlier? And a pretentious name like that? ;)


Sadly, it seems that Florence Emma Bond Hill didn't survive. I wonder about Ernest Augustus Hore Hill ...

Nope.

Births Jun 1881
HILL Ernest Augustus H Salford 8d 163
Deaths Sep 1881
Hill Ernest Augustus H 0 Salford 8d 67


Hannah Hill aged 5 in 1881 ... born before the marriage ... to him, or Harriet?

Wow, Janey! Big breakthrough on brother William. How lucky is that?

Well done,

Ozi

JC - here's another extract of your record:

Baptism: 25 May 1881 St Clement, Salford, Lancashire, England
Ernest Augustus Hore Hill - Child of William Stephen Hore Hill & Harriet
Born: 22 Apr 1881
Abode: 11 Sarah Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: C.V. Merriman
Register: Baptisms 1877 - 1882, Page 104, Entry 828
Source: LDS Film 1786422

from - http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html

I believe she's Harriet's. Otherwise she'd have a high-falutin' name!


Is this her Janey?
1891 England Census
Name: Hannah Hill
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Grand or Great Niece (Great Niece)
Gender: Female
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Hale
Ecclesiastical parish: Altrincham St John
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street Address: Broomfield Rd

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Altrincham
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ramming 66 - Secretary; Houghton, Lancs
Alice Ramming 57 - Strangeways, Lancs
Hannah Hill 15

Marriages Jun 1878 (>99%)
BENNEY Elizabeth Manchester 8d 394
EDGE Harriet Lea Manchester 8d 394
HILL William Stephen H H Manchester 8d 394
ROBERTSHAW John William Manchester 8d 394


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HILL William S H EDGE Harriet L Manchester, Miles Platting, St. John the Evangelist Manchester 94/1/282

Yes, I do so well at a search engine,I do. Eventually. ;)

Maybe Harriet was also telling tales about her age.

Name: Frances Alice Hannah Edge
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 19 Mar 1874
Baptism/Christening Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: James Gibson Edge
Mother's Name: Harriet Edge
Reference Number: 196
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Also James Gibson Edge Jr, 04 Aug 1875.

But the marriage would be:

Marriages Sep 1871
EDGE James Gibson Sheffield 9c 547
Goodall Harriett Sheffield 9c 547

and that's just stretching the ages a bit much ...

Well, so much for more kids:

Deaths Sep 1883
HILL Harriet Lea 24 Salford 8d 90

... No luck with quick searches for various more stuff in GRO indexes and censuses so far, but that's early days.

A possible ...
Name: William Hill
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 66
District: Salford
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 130

Thanks guys! (I did have the Hill-Edge marriage right at the beginning. ;) )

More to dig around at now.