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Dionne

No, she meant your fathers papers! The only papers for Edwin/Edward would be at Kew - the ones I found!

Hi Nicola

What a great idea.

I was only reading my Fathers Navy records today and they made great reading. So are you saying my father could apply in his own right to obtain his grandfathers Army Papers? If so do you know who he would have to apply to to get these. All we know is that Edwin (his grandfather ) was in the Royal Army Medical Corps.

many thanks
Dionne

Dionne

On a separate note your own father should be able to obtain his Naval Personal file. I know it is is possible to obtain Army records fairly easily if if you are the owner, or immediate next of kin. I would imagine the RAF and Navy have a similar policy. I assume your father is in receipt of a Naval pension therefore would imagine the Navy will still have his file.

I was able to get my grandfather's Army file and from that was able to establish that he had deserted the Army in India in 1935 and rejoined the Army in Scotland using a different surname and date of birth, married bigamously had a child etc etc!! In 1954 he went back to his original name - perhaps having dumped his second family!! Without sight of the Army file, I would never have got more pieces of the jigsaw. I know he died as in an in-Pensioner at the Royal Hospital Chelsea in 1981, we are now desperately trying to find his son, my father's half brother. On my Nan's marriage certificate to my step-grandfather she put herself down as a widow, which clearly she was not. So as the saying goes ' Nothing is set in stone, unless it is your epitath'!

Really hope you get the answers you are looking for in your search.

Nicki

Hi Brenda

Thankyou for the census records.I had them all apart from the last one.

I have done another search at 24 Ancestry.I have gone though all the records and come up with nothing what soever.I do think the site is still in its infancy but new records are added on a regular basis it seems.

So it looks like Dorothea had a brother!
I wonder if she knew anything about him.She never mentioned a brother and only mentioned her sister Edith Constance.

So again Ann it looks like am pinning my hopes on you on your next viset to Kew. Fingers crossed you turn up trumps again.

Thanks all
Dionne

Williams wife (Edwins mother)

1881 England Census
about Sarah Ann Harvey
Name: Sarah Ann Harvey
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Step Daughter
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Female
Where born: Maldon, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Maldon St Peter
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: Fambridge Road
Education:
Employment status:
View Image
Occupation: Formerly Domestic
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriet Cook 59
John Cook 68Head/ Blacksmith
Edith A. Harvey 4 Grandaughter
Sarah Ann Harvey 22
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 1776; Folio: 44; Page: 45; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341429.

1871 England Census
about Sarah Harvey
Name: Sarah Harvey
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Stepdaughter
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Female
Where born: Maldon, Essex, England

Civil Parish: St Peter
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Maldon
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:Farnbridge Road
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage
Disability:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 269
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriet Cook 49
John Cook 56 Head/ Smith
Geoge Harvey 27Stepson/ Straw Binder
Joseph Harvey 17Stepson/Straww Binder
Sarah Harvey 12 Stepdaughter
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1674; Folio: 46; Page: 42; GSU roll: 829960.

1861 England Census
about Sarah A Harvey
Name: Sarah A Harvey
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Female
Where born: Maldon, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Maldon St Peter
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:Farnbridge Rd
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 299
Household Members:
Name Age
George Harvey 11 born Norfolk
Harriet Harvey 39Head/Widow/laundress/born Freethorp Norfolk
Jacob Harvey 10born Norfolk
Joseph Harvey 7Born Norfolk
Maria Harvey 13daughter/Laundress
Sarah A Harvey 2 born Maldon Essex
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 1090; Folio: 57; Page: 50; GSU roll: 542751.

1851 England Census
about Harriet Harvey
Name: Harriet Harvey
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Freethorpe, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Norton Subcourse
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address: Lew Road
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View Image
Registration district: Loddon
Sub-registration district: Aldeby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 69
Household Members:
Name Age
George Harvey 1
Harriet Harvey 31
Harriet Harvey 5
Jacob Harvey 3 Mo
James Harvey 33 Head/Ag Lab/ Born Toft Monks, Norfolk
James Harvey 9
John Harvey 7
Maria Harvey 3
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1820; Folio: 12; Page: 17; GSU roll: 207473.

All children born Norton Subcourse Norfolk

1841 England Census
about James Harvey
Name: James Harvey
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Norton Subcourse
Hundred: Clavering
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address:Low Road
Occupation:
View Image
Registration district: Loddon
Sub-registration district: Aldeby
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Harriot Harvey 20
James Harvey 20Ag Lab
Robt Harvey 9 Mo
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 756; Book: 13; Civil Parish: Norton Subcourse; County: Norfolk; Enumeration District: 10; Folio: 7; Page: 11; Line: 4; GSU roll: 438850.

Marriages 3rd qtr 1840
Bunn Harriet Blofield 13 35
HARVEY James Blofield &c. 13 35

Marriages 3rd qtr 1866
COOK John Maldon 4a 321
HARVEY Harriett Maldon 4a 32


Edith Annie Harvey maybe adopted the name Livermore:

Marriages 3rd qtr 1903
Harvey Leonard Cecil Colchester 4a 1308
>>>>>>>Livermore Edith Annie Colchester 4a 1308
>>>>>>>Smith Charles Colchester 4a 1308
Yell Ada Maria Colchester 4a 1308


Births 3rd qtr 1911
Smith Ruth Livermore Maldon 4a 1456

Brenda

1851 England Census
about Joseph Livermon
Name: Joseph Livermon
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Father's Name: William
Gender: Male
Where born: Mundon, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Bradwell Near The Sea
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:Weymarks
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage
Disability:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 4a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 86
Household Members:
Name Age
William Dawson 26
Hannah Livermon 27
Joseph Livermon 27 Ag Lab
Mary A Livermon 5
Rosana Livermon 3
Sarah Livermon 1 Mo
William Livermon 56Father/Widower/ Ag Lab
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1778; Folio: 239; Page: 26; GSU roll: 207425-207426.


1841 England Census
about Joseph Livermore
Name: Joseph Livermore
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Essex, England

Civil Parish: Mundon
Hundred: Dengie
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:Shepherds Cottage, Mundon Hall
Occupation:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Maldon
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Dedman 15
Joseph Livermore 15 Ag Lab
Eliza Sallows 2
George Sallows 1 Mo
James Sallows 5
Mary Sallows 35
Mary Sallows 7
Samuel Sallows 40
Samuel Sallows 12
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 327; Book: 21; Civil Parish: Mundon; County: Essex; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: ; Page: 1; Line: 25; GSU roll: 241366.

Marriages 4th qtr 1844
FREEMAN Hannah Maldon 12 309
LIVERMORE Joseph Maldon 12 309

Births 2nd qtr 1862
LIVERMORE William Maldon 4a 204

Williams children:

Births 2nd qtr 1884
Livermore Edwin William Maldon 4a 419

Births 2nd qtr 1886
LIVERMORE Florence Emily Maldon 4a 456

Births 1st qtr 1890
Livermore Alice Maud Maldon 4a 507

Stepdaughter
Births 1st qtr 1877
Harvey Edith Annie Maldon 4a 326


Brenda

The census for William Livermore b 1862 and family/

1901 England Census
about William Livermore
Name: William Livermore
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Colchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary at the Walls
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 9 Balkherne Lane
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View Image
Registration district: Colchester
Sub-registration district: Colchester, First Ward
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Alice M Livermore 11
Annie Livermore 42
Florence E Livermore 14 Drapers Asst
William Livermore 39 Groom
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 1707; Folio: 29; Page: 4

1891 England Census
about Willm Livermore
Name: Willm Livermore
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Southminster
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alban
Town: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:Rose & Crown, High St
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Edith Annie Harvey 14
Alice Maud Livermore 1
Edwin W Livermore 6
Florence E Livermore 4
Sarah Ann Livermore 29
Willm Livermore 32 Carrier
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1395; Folio 96; Page 9; GSU roll: 6096505.


1881 England Census
about William Livermore
Name: William Livermore
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: Cottage High St
Education:
Employment status:
View Image
Occupation: Carrier
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Annie Livermore 12
Emily Livermore 17
Hannah Livermore 57Head/ Widow/ Carrier
William Livermore 18 son/Carrier
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 1773; Folio: 117; Page: 25; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341428

1871 England Census
about William Livermore
Name: William Livermore
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Southminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Dengie
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:High St
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Alice K Livermore 5
Annie Livermore 2
Emily Livermore 7
Hannah Livermore 47Wife/ Tailoress
Jane Livermore 11
Joseph Livermore 47 Head/ Master Carrier
J William Livermore 15
R Hannah Livermore 23 daughter/ Tailoress
William Livermore 9
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1671; Folio: 108; Page: 4; GSU roll: 829958.

1861 England Census
about Joseph Livermore
Name: Joseph Livermore
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Mundon, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:High st
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View Image
Registration district: Maldon
Sub-registration district: Southminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 8h
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 79
Household Members:
Name Age
Phillip 15
Hannah Livermore 37Wife/
Hannah Livermore 9
Jane Livermore 1
Joseph Livermore 37Head/Carman(Common ?) Carrier
Joseph Livermore 5
Raser Livermore 13
Sarah Livermore 10
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 1087; Folio: 119; Page: 13; GSU roll: 542751.

1851 & 1841 to follow

Im so so sorry.

I did mean to say 1930 on Dorotheas marriage certificate and 1939 0n Edith Constance marriage certificate.

I am on Ancestry24 at the momnt re going through all the South African records that they have on the site.At the moment I am drawing a blank.

Dionne

Ahhh, so looking very likely to be a brother to Dorothea then! :-))

Mary

Yes, if he was the son, he would have been born very soon before his fathers service in SA ended (29/11/1911)

Which would explain why I can't find a birth entry for him in uk registers, born in SA probably.

oh hang on Dionne,,,, sorry yes you have Dorothea marrying at 3 years old? or is that -1 ? :P

I need a lie down...

apart from anything else we know him to be in Africa then,,,, so he couldn't father a child in the uk....unless the wife travelled here? err Dionne, how can her father be listed as dead in 1910 and discharged from the army in 1912? something is def not right there!!!, even for me...

He wasn't dead by 1910!! Don't you mean 1930?! (well, if that was true)

Wayne Not practical to look at incoming ships, there will be hundreds and without an idea of port, or place,or date, just not possible.

Hi Dionne

As I said - I do actually think that it is most likely to be a brother of Dorothea.

I also know from experience that people don't always tell the truth on their marriage certs - fathers are said to be dead when they are very much alive, or alive when they are dead etc!! All depends on the people and the circumstances at the time I guess.

Mary

Edited: Sorry - just noticed that she says her father was dead by 1910.

i know you were just testing i was awake.... and i you...

Ok so now we both pass... whats next?? lol


Should we be trying to fill in the years prior to Dorothea having her children?

Hi Mary

I am really really confused now. I could accept that it might be a brother to Dorothea and Edith but the birth date is 1911.On Dorotheas marriage certificate she has her father down as deceased in 1910. I dont understand how you think it might be Edwins death as he was born in 1884 and the death is recorded as 1972 forty years after Dorotheas marriage certificate saying father deceased.
I do really appreciate the help you are giving me.Thankyou so much.

Wayne. Come on you know me by now...lol. I did mean to say Africa and not Canada,lol.

Dionne
x

Hi Ann

Yes, that's what I thought when I saw it :-)

I'm inclined to think that it is a brother because of the dob given - but anything is possible.

Mary

Mary

This sounds interesting - perhaps another child.

Just found out that the Kew leaflet is wrong-they DO have pension registers for those discharged due to disability up to 1913, so will look at that next time!

which would beg the question, are there inbound ships records we can browse through?

Is that something Kew would have Ann?