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SARAH - Thanks for your reply. I had the ref. of Ellen Collins et al. in the 1871 census already. I was kindly sent the image. Things looked good. I sent off for John SHAY birth cert. He was born in the Workhouse, South St. Giles. in 1854. Father unspecified. Mother a Catherine SHAY. If Timothy was the unnamed father perhaps he accepted the child later. Timothy's second marriage was to an Elizabeth RICHARDS in March 1878. Timothy's father was stated to be Patrick COLLINS, deceased. Elizabeth RICHARDS's father was a James Richards, deceased. I have Timothy's Death Cert. He died in Aug 1894. According to the 1881 census and family folk-lore Timothy and Elizabeth had a son called John who was then 3 years old. There are three step-children named in the 1881 census. Their surname is RICHARDS. BUT on the wedding certificate 1878 Elizabeth is described as a Spinster. I know nothing of Mary except that on the Marriage Cert. to Timothy her father is a George Lynch. I have looked up on Freebmd and found the following possibly, but how probable, death refs. for Mary or Mary Ann Collins - Mar. 1864 - St. Geo. East - no age given Mar. 1865 - Rotherhithe - no age given Mar 1875 - St. Geo. East - age 46. This could be good BUT this is after 1871. Sep. 1877 - St. Olave - age 45 I have beginning to think that this a total red herring and that I have become fixated on the idea ANY Timothy Collins whose father is Patrick is automatically MY Timothy and that therefore it is fact and not still conjecture. I had used the name PATRICK as an eliminator when applying for the marriage cert. and Mary was the only qualifier. Sarah - how do you keep yourself sane when all about you people like me are burbling on and not making very much sense. I hope that you can tease some sense out of all this. Again, I appreciate all your efforts. Rita

Sarah Thank you for the lookup you did for me on the Collins. Could you look up another one please William Wharton b late 1880/90 Railway laborer m Martha Wharton ne Beggs date unknown had 2 sons in 1911 Samuel Hugh Wharton, William Wharton Manchester Ardwick Chorlton district. Thank You Kath.

DONNA Can't find any exact matches, but try these for size: Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Alice Coombs 14 Somerset, England Servant Chapel Allerton Somerset Mary Ann Emery 23 Somerset, England Servant Chapel Allerton Somerset Henry Godfery 23 Somerset, England Servant Chapel Allerton Somerset William Gould 18 Somerset, England Servant Chapel Allerton Somerset Albert John Peek 1 C Allerton, Somerset, England Son Chapel Allerton Somerset John T Peek 37 Somerset, England Head Chapel Allerton Somerset Mary Peek 40 Compton, Somerset, England Wife Chapel Allerton Somerset Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Emma Baker 17 Clanderson, Somerset, England Servant Radstock Somerset James Chandler 17 Radstock, Somerset, England Assistant Radstock Somerset Allien Gould 13 Radstock, Somerset, England Daughter Radstock Somerset Ann E Gould 19 Radstock, Somerset, England Daughter Radstock Somerset Emily Gould 20 Radstock, Somerset, England Daughter Radstock Somerset Emma Gould 30 Hul, Gloucestershire, England Wife Radstock Somerset John Gould 47 Stone Easton, Somerset, England Head Radstock Somerset John Gould 3 Radstock, Somerset, England Son Radstock Somerset Sarah Gould 12 Radstock, Somerset, England Daughter Radstock Somerset William Gould 18 Radstock, Somerset, England Son Radstock Somerset James Halladay 25 Frome, Somerset, England Assistant Radstock Somerset William Lauson 19 Leigh on Mendip, Somerset, England Assistant Radstock Somerset Emma Naish 17 Plumtree, Somerset, England Servant Radstock Somerset Anna Marian Sawtell 27 Ashcott, Somerset, England Assistant Radstock Somerset Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Ann Goold 61 Long Ashton, Somerset, England Wife Camerton Somerset Harriet Goold 8 Timsbury, Somerset, England Niece Camerton Somerset John Goold 60 Camerton, Somerset, England Head Camerton Somerset Mary Goold 23 Camerton, Somerset, England Daughter Camerton Somerset William Goold 18 Camerton, Somerset, England Son Camerton Somerset Do you have any other names connected that I could search under?

RITA - ok, you really got me on this one! lol These are families closest fitting the details: Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Ellen Collins 32 Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Wife Bermondsey London Patrick Collins 16 St Georges, Middlesex, England Son Bermondsey London Timothy Collins 38 St Georges, Middlesex, England Head Bermondsey London John Shay 17 Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Son Bermondsey London (not quite sure where the figures come from here...John Shay is definitely listed as 'son' on the image, but it doesn't add up to the parent's ages!) Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Mary Collins 50 Cork, Ireland Wife St Giles in the Fields London Timothy Collins 45 Cork, Ireland Head St Giles in the Fields London Margaret Crawley 28 Ireland Lodger St Giles in the Fields London Patsy Crawley 28 Ireland Lodger St Giles in the Fields London Patsy Crawley 2 St Giles, Middlesex, England Lodger St Giles in the Fields London Thomas Kingston 28 London, England Lodger St Giles in the Fields London Alice Price 40 London, England Lodger St Giles in the Fields London James Price 8 St Giles, Middlesex, England Lodger St Giles in the Fields London Is it possible Mary was already deceased by the time the 1871 census was taken? While Timothy didn't remarry until 1878, its still possible he was living with his new wife. What is the name of wife no.2 (maiden name that is)? And how certain are you that Mary Ann and Patrick were both still living in 1871?

Sarah - I am afraid that I may have inadvertently misled you. The original info. I gave you re. Timothy and Mary Collins (nee Lynch) was from the 1861 census, as follows: Timothy age 34 - born St. George, Middx. Coal Whipper Mary age 30 - born Ireland Cork Mary Ann, daughter, age 3/poss. 8, born St. George Patrick, son, age either 0 or 9 by the looks of things, born St. George. They were living then at 7 Hilliards(sp) Ct (St?)., Tower Hamlets. Parish - St. George in the East. They may have moved to the Southwark, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe, St. Olave, Surrey area of London subsequent to the 1861 census. Timothy re-married as a widower in 1878. As I said prev. the marriage cert. 1850 states Mary's maiden name as Lynch, father George Lynch. I must say that the dates that I have from the 1881 census - Timothy age 48, tallies exactly with his death in 1894, whereas the 1861 census indicates that he was born in 1827. My head is spinning - I'm not very analytical so am now getting frazzed. If I still smoked - I'd have a fag, If I had the energy - I'd rock and roll, but On the other hand there is still a very large glass of red wine. to bring comfort and solace. I'm still not sure if I am looking in the right direction. It is only the fact that Timothy's father was Patrick and that is Timothy's father's name on the marriage cert. to Mary Lynch. Time for me break - thanks for all your efforts. Rita

RITA can we check the dates/ages again - it doesn't quite add up: in 1871 you have Mary aged 30 Timothy aged 34 Mary Ann aged 3 you say you have a marriage cert dated 1850, but that would put Mary & Timothy at 10 and 14yrs respectively, so I don't think that can be the right marriage. I did find this marriage: COLLINS, Timothy 1866 September Marriages St George in the East London Surrey but it isn't fully transcribed onto ancestry, so I can't see who the bride was. That would need to be checked on 1837.com but I'm afraid I have no credits on there at the mo. That date seems more likely with the ages you have given. Could you confirm the actual dates of birth you have (or as close as you have them) and I'll see if there is anything on 1851 for either (although that isn't fully transcribed so a bit hit and miss on ancestry) In the meantime here are some I found by looking for all Timothy's, Patrick's and Mary's in London - don't think any of them are right though :o( Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Jermiah Joseph Collins 1 Bermondsey, England Son St John London Mary Ann Collins 26 Bermondsey, England Wife St John London Timothy Collins 27 Ireland Head St John London Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Harriet Collins 51 Ireland Mother St George Hanover Square London Mary Ann Collins 15 Pimlico, Middlesex, England Daughter St George Hanover Square London Timothy Collins 31 Ireland Son St George Hanover Square London (the ages here might suggest Mary Ann is Timothy's daughter, rather than Harriet's - just a possibility) Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Joseph Collins 31 Ireland Head Christchurch London Joseph Collins 1 Lambeth, Surrey, England Son Christchurch London Mary Collins 30 Ireland Wife Christchurch London Mary Collins 3 Lambeth, Surrey, England Daughter Christchurch London Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Bridget Collins 8 Aldgate, London, England Daughter St Botolph without Aldgate London Daniel Collins 2 Aldgate, London, England Son St Botolph without Aldgate London Julia Collins 4 Aldgate, London, England Daughter St Botolph without Aldgate London Mary Collins 29 Cork, Ireland Wife St Botolph without Aldgate London Patrick Collins 34 Cork, Ireland Head St Botolph without Aldgate London Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Mary Collins 29 Clare, Ireland Wife Poplar All Saints London Mary Collins 3 Clare, Ireland Daughter Poplar All Saints London Michael Collins 1 Poplar, Middlesex, England Son Poplar All Saints London Patrick Collins 30 Clare, Ireland Head Poplar All Saints London Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Mary Collins 30 Ireland Head St Luke London Mary Collins 1 St Luke, Middlesex, England Daughter St Luke London

Sarah - It never occurred to me that maiden names might be used in the censuses. A dete tive I will never be!. I have Timothy and Mary Collins wedding cert. Batchelor and Spinster respectively. She was a Mary Lynch and her father was a George Lynch, Coal Whipper. The marriage was 18th April 1850 in the District of Stepney Union, Middx. Would any o this help. Somehow I don't feel it in my water that these are 'mine' but they are the only ones with a common name to Timothy's father i.e. Patrick Collins, Timothy's father. on the marriage lines. Hear hearing from you. Rita

MAISIE - the only marriage info is whats on freeMD except for Pallots which covers the majority of London parishes - if you give me the details I can have a look, see what I can find. RITA - nothing, nada, zilch - have tried variations of the names, even looked at all 'timothy's of the right age...do you have anything else that might track them down? Siblings for Timothy or Mary? Mary's maiden name? You never know what ends up on some censuses! The nearest I got to Mary, witha daughter Mary Ann was: Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Dennis Collins 40 Cork, Ireland Head Wapping London Dennis Collins 7 Wapping, Middlesex, England Son Wapping London Edward Collins 7 Wapping, Middlesex, England Son Wapping London Eliza Collins 11 Wapping, Middlesex, England Daughter Wapping London Jeremiah Collins 1 Wapping, Middlesex, England Son Wapping London Mary Collins 35 Cork, Ireland Wife Wapping London Mary Ann Collins 3 Wapping, Middlesex, England Daughter Wapping London Michael Collins 9 Wapping, Middlesex, England Son Wapping London but none of the rest of the info seems to tie in at all. Sorry.

Added By Rita Todd on 27/03/2005 16:46:28 | Update Message | Delete Message Sarah - The relevant name is COLLINS - Timothy and Mary. Appreciate your humour, and look forward to hearing from you. I hope I have cracked the PC system but I doubt it somehow! Could you check for the following please, particularly on the 1871 census. Timothy age 34 - born St. George, Middx. Coal Whipper Mary age 30 - born Ireland Cork Mary Ann, daughter, age 3, born St. George Patrick, son, age either 0 or 9 by the looks of things, born St. George. They were living then at 7 Hilliards(sp) Ct (St?)., Tower Hamlets. Parish - St. George in the East. They may have moved to the Southerwark, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe, St. Olave, Surrey area of London subsequent to this census. Timothy re-married as a widower in 1878. I would like to narrow the search for Mary's death, and pick up the trail of the children if this possible. Any help you can give will be, as ever, much appreciated. Rita Sarah - The relevant name is COLLINS - Timothy and Mary. Appreciate your humour, and look forward to hearing from you. I hope I have cracked the PC system but I doubt it somehow!

Sarah, Can you do Marriages? I'm at a brick wall Cheers Maisie

Hi Sarah, thanks for your help today. I'm sure the image you found will be of help. Cheers and thanks again, Andy

Hi Sarah i don't think those are mine, but thanks for trying! Deb

DEBBIE these are the only William and Mary Skeet I could find: Name Age in 1891 Birthplace Relationship to head-of-house Civil parish County View Image Skeet, George Herbert 10 Framlingham, Essex Son Framlingham Suffolk Skeet, Mary Ama 41 Framlingham, Essex Wife Framlingham Suffolk Skeet, Walter John 15 Framlingham, Essex Son Framlingham Suffolk Skeet, William 47 Badingham, Essex Head Framlingham Suffolk Skeet, Alfred Thomas 3 Framlingham, Essex Son Framlingham Suffolk Skeet, Florence Annie 7 Framlingham, Essex Daughter Framlingham Suffolk The only Edgar I can find is 57!

Sarah, Thanks for going to all that trouble looking for Lionel Edwards, none seem to be the right one. He was born 1880 in Marylebone with just the one christian name, he was one of 6 brothers, and there are still another two that I cannot find in 1901. Thanks again, Pat.

Rita - don't mean to be picky, but could I have a surname to look for?? lol

Sarah I hope you don't mind, but I have another 1891 Skeet look-up, please: Edgar Ernest Skeet, b. 1878, Alderton, Suffolk His father was William Skeet (born c. 1828 in Saxmundham) His mother was Mary Skket (born c. 1848 in Alderton) Many thanks Deb

Sarah - The relevant name is COLLINS - Timothy and Mary. Appreciate your humour, and look forward to hearing from you. I hope I have cracked the PC system but I doubt it somehow! Could you check for the following please, particularly on the 1871 census. Timothy age 34 - born St. George, Middx. Coal Whipper Mary age 30 - born Ireland Cork Mary Ann, daughter, age 3, born St. George Patrick, son, age either 0 or 9 by the looks of things, born St. George. They were living then at 7 Hilliards(sp) Ct (St?)., Tower Hamlets. Parish - St. George in the East. They may have moved to the Southerwark, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe, St. Olave, Surrey area of London subsequent to this census. Timothy re-married as a widower in 1878. I would like to narrow the search for Mary's death, and pick up the trail of the children if this possible. Any help you can give will be, as ever, much appreciated. Rita Sarah - The relevant name is COLLINS - Timothy and Mary. Appreciate your humour, and look forward to hearing from you. I hope I have cracked the PC system but I doubt it somehow!

Woo-hoo! Just what I was after. Thanks Sarah and happy Easter. Debbie

DEBBIE - wish all my rellies had such unusual names! Name Age in 1891 Birthplace Relationship to head-of-house Civil parish County View Image Skeet, Alice M 26 Alderton, Suffolk Wife Alderton Suffolk Skeet, Cecil W B 1 Alderton, Suffolk Son Alderton Suffolk Skeet, George W 6 Alderton, Suffolk Son Alderton Suffolk Skeet, Jabez 28 Hollesley, Suffolk Head Alderton Suffolk Skeet, Richard N 3 Alderton, Suffolk Son Alderton Suffolk

Sarah Please look up the following in the 1891 census: Jabez Skeet, b. 1862, in Hollesley, Woodbridge, Suffolk Many thanks Debbie