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Now I am totally bamboozled-I have them living with parents George and Harriett-could it be possible that he married somebody called Elizabeth-his first marriage-and he also has a sister Elizabeth??

Jennifer - I'll have to leave you with this for now - unfortunately that nasty thing called work is calling. I'll look in when I get back some time tonight. Jools

Thank you so much for all your time and effort you have put into this-hope you have a good day at work.

Just passing through ....... Jennifer - you know he has a sister called Elizabeth - have a look at the 1841 I posted way back up the thread. Question - on his marriage certificate - what name is given for his father? please tell me it's George :)) Also where have you got them on the 1861 - as in what's the piece/folio?

Just got back from shopping and seen this latest message, will check now and get back a.s.a.p.

Right I have his Father as George and Mother as Harriott-I looked at the 1841 you sent and noticed the N.K.Butcher at the bottom-are you saying that N.K. could be not known? and are you suggesting to me that this could be his wife?? I cannot find my 1861 census - got paper's everywhere today-but still looking.

On the 1841 NK was a young female baby which obviously hadn't been named. Look higher up the family and you will see an Elizabeth who I am guessing is his sister - she is a year older than your George. Are you saying that on his marriage certificate both george's parents are named? That would be very unusual - I would expect his father's name to be there in the end column, but (apart from bride and groom names) the only other names on the certificate will be that of the witnesses. Exactly what does the 1861 marriage certificate say (cos right now I don't even know you possess it and it's the only concrete proof you have of his father's name) - in fact you can't be 100% certain it's your George's marriage can you.

I've nudged the other thread about this man........to enable cross-referencing. Reg

Yes, I guessed Elizabeth was his sister.

On the wedding cert. it give's his Father's name as George Butcher and we have two George Butcher's in our Family tree-the lady who began researching her tree had this George as being the son of Joseph, when in fact it was my other George who was the son of Joseph, and so we are left with this George as the son of George and Harriott. This all reads very confusing.

So now please can you tell me from the 1861 marriage certificate 1] what was the occupation of George the father 2] what were the witnesses names 3] what addresses were given

No addresses on-Father George was a labourer and the witnesses are Sarah (looks like) Ely and ***** Shelly (very hard to read) all marked with an X Church was Pattiswick Church.

Jennifer - do they give their ages on the MC or does it just say 'of full age'

It just says both of full age

I keep coming back to that 1861 entry I found this morning at 8.39 for George 31 born Gosfield and Elizabeth born Pattiswick. BUT they are married - and in somewhere as comparatively small as Pattiswick I wouldn't have thought they'd have got away with saying they were married when they weren't. There are plenty of people on the 1861 pattiswick with the surname Shelley (51 to be precise), but the only nunn in Pattiswick is called Emma and she was born 1839 in Woodham Mortimer, Essex.

Could not that be George and Eliza (Elizabeth) ?

I have been and still am going through the BMD records looking for clues-but I thinik I am at a brick wall. It is made extra difficlut because of the two George's born so close together. I used to think it made things easier having repetitive family names, now I am not so sure.

I might have solved it - but it will cost you £7 to be sure. The george & elizabeth I keep harping on about on the 1861 who were married - there is the death of an elizabeth butcher in AMJ 1861 braintree 4a 195. If I'm right, this is the death of his first wife, followed in JAS 1861 by his marriage to no 2 wife Eliza Nunn

Thank you it will be the best £7 I have ever spent. I will order the cert. after ten tonight. My Son needs me for half an hour-just want to thank you for all your time and hard work you have put it. Now I just have to try and be patient for the cert to arrive-sorry Jools-my Son is shouting for me-back soon. Thank you once again. Do I use the reference number you sent to order the cert. oops. getting called must dash-back half an hour.

Jools you are a star.