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Hi Jane, just wanted to say thanks for all your time and help, best wishes Mary

Hi Marna 1851 Southgate James Savage abt 1850 Felthorpe, Norfolk, England Son Cawston Norfolk Mary Savage abt 1787 Farston, Norfolk, England Head Cawston Norfolk WIDOW Thomas Savage abt 1831 Cawston, Norfolk, England Son Cawston Norfolk SHEPHERD Jane

Hi Jane, its not your fault,.. you did your best... Im very grateful for all your help. I have just spoken to other cousin and she insists on the Wales/Somerset connection.but has added that George junior was put in a home when his father died...but she doesn't know any dates or where...she said that she would ask her mum [my aunty] next time she sees her...as she seems to remember bits and pieces.. Well Jane I think that it will be better to shelve it for a while and wait for more information...I will do the odd trawl and hopefully the right ones will turn up sometime if or when I find out their birthdates I will come back to you,for more help.... its been very interesting and I have learned a lot with your help ...thanks again Hetty.

Hi Jane, Many thanks, you found the right Small family, did not know about Richard. Thanks once again. regards, linda

paul, having a nightmare.............. still ! still can't find any trace of Mary as a Young after 1871, with or without daughter Elizabeth !! maybe she married again, pmsl ! can't find any trace of her before 1871 either as a Young, Lewis or every spelling version of Terrell !! no Emma Terrell either, infact no Terrells in Risca at all in 1871! do you have Elizabeths marriage certificate by any chance, would be interesting to know who she named as her father on that, knowing your luck ------- someone completely different, lol. sorry Jx

Mary still can't find any trace of them i'm afraid........ with regards to the marriage certificate , have you tried searching the BMD indexes on Ancestry? it is free, but you have to search quarter by quarter so can be time consuming, start off with 1893 and work backwards. sorry can't help much more, lol Jane

Marna, here you are: 1841 Southgate George Savage abt 1826 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk AG LAB James Savage abt 1830 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Maria Savage abt 1828 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Mary Savage abt 1791 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Robert Savage abt 1791 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk SHEPHERD Thomas Savage abt 1832 Norfolk, England Cawston Norfolk Jane

Hi Linda here you go: 1851 Weavers / Beavers ct (or something completely different, lol) Christian Small abt 1804 Exeter Westgate Wife St Anne Soho Middlesex Joseph Small abt 1802 Exeter Westgate Head St Anne Soho Middlesex SHOEMAKER Louisa Small abt 1836 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Daughter St Anne Soho Middlesex Richard Small abt 1844 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Son St Anne Soho Middlesex William Small abt 1838 St James Westminster, Middlesex, England Son St Anne Soho Middlesex too many Smalls in London to list them all for you, sorry Jane

Hi Jane, I wonder if you would mind looking in the 1851 census for Joseph Small (dob not known) Christiana Small age 47 born Devon William Small age 13. born St.James,London and any other Smalls that lived in London. In the 1861 they were living in the St.James area, Westminster. Many thanks, linda

Yeeeeeeeeeesssssssss, you have just knocked down a huge brickwall for me, ages ago I found his wife and son in Rochdale with rellies in 1861, but did not know her hubbies name till I received the sons birth cert today and now I finally have pinned him down in 1861 and another child too :~))) George

Hi George, is this your man?? Waring Green Sarah Gomersall abt 1792 Yorkshire, England Servant Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire WIDOW Arthur Abbott Haigh abt 1857 Brighouse, Yorkshire, England Son Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire William Haigh abt 1831 Southowram Parish of Halifax, Yorkshire, England Head Hipperholme with Brighouse Yorkshire BUTCHER ( status given as married !) Class: RG9; Piece: 3276; Folio: 55; Page: 12;

Could you look up the following individual on Ancestry in 1861: William Haigh b abt 1831, Yorkshire, England, Head, residing in Hipperholme with Brighouse, Yorkshire Thanks George

Hetty right............. this is the only George Thomas i could find in the right area: George Thomas Turner - March 1879, Tenterden 2a 719 and this one a bit out of your dates though George Thomas Turner - June 1881, Mile End 1c 522 checked dates from 1877 - 1880 not many Hettys at all..... but found these: Hetty Mehetabel F. Turner - June 1880, Edmonton 3a 266 checked dates from 1880 - 1882 not much help is it, lol sorry Jane

Hi Jane, Thanks for the possible John Young 1871 Census results. Typical ! he is a bl**dy lodger which leads me to yet another dead end if this is the right John Young. Yes, I have the following marriage certificate Lewis Mary Newport M 11a 287 Young John Newport M 11a 287 and she is either a liar or I have the wrong certificate. and yes, there are pretty much 9 months between John's Death (If I have the right John) and the birth of Elizabeth Ann Young so it is a close call. Can you find any TERRELL people in 1871 Census? Elizabeth Ann Young's birth Certificate shows EMMA TERRELL as occupier of the house she was born in, although it just says RISCA as place of birth. If Mary Young was born Mary Terrell then Emma could be her Mother, Sister or Aunt. Of course, if Mary Young was really Mary Lewis and married a TERRELL then maybe Emma is her sister-in-law that John didnt know about. Thanks for what you have found so far but please find more and talk aloud. If my family are a bunch of deceitful fibbers then i want to know about it. Paul

Hetty, am going to search the birth indexes later on, hoping it wont take too long, helps having the exact dates of birth though, thanks. so check back later won't you - wont be starting it till after 8pm tonight though..................... speak to you later Jane

Hi Jane. I spoke to one cousin this evening and she does not have any certificates but she does think that George and Hetty junior were born in London.. . we agreed that their accents were London and not Somerset...we all agree on Hetty Turner's birthdate of 12th of January and George Thomas on 22 of December but do not know the exact year....[.though I think it must be 1878/9 for George and 1880/1 for Hetty.].....don't know if this is any help?? George Junior did put London Middlesex as his and Hetty's birth place on the 1901 Sussex census..[assuming it is them].. so I suppose that we should go with that.. . .We all seem to think that Hetty's name was just Hetty and not Harriet ect... although George did call her Ett or Ettie... I haven't tried my Aunty yet...I will do that tomorrow evening and hope that she can help enlighten it further. where do we go from here then Jane?....is it possible to find them by their birth dates if we can't pinpoint a birthplace... do you think? I will look in again tomorrow evening ...hopefully with some more news... Thankyou for your help then. night night. Hetty

Hi Jane Thanks that's great for now - mystery solved. Hope you got my message too Bye for now and thanks again Jan

Hi Jan now....... think this is your Alfred in 1891.... Salop fields Alfred Catchpole abt 1862 Kingston on Thames, Surrey, England Head Shifnal Shropshire WIDOW / CLOTHIERS ASST Constance F M Catchpole abt 1888 Wimbledon, Surrey, England Daughter Shifnal Shropshire Harriet Hitchings 1836 Worcester, servant Shifnal, Shropshire 1881 Kingston, Surrey Richmond park rd Alfred Catchpole 1836 b. Whitechapel. commerciall tea labeller Alfred 1861 Kingston, Surrey drapers assistant Edith 1871 ' Elizabeth 1837 ' Ernest 1866 ' Frank 1867 ' Henry 1863 ' Mary Ann 1874 ' and eventually, 1901 Shifnal, Shropshire 7 Market place Alfred Catchpole 1861 kingston on thames, Surrey clothiers manager Mabel 1888 wimbledon, Surrey Ellen Millet 1852 servant, Kidderminster, Worcester let me know if you would like me to go further back with these wont you.........

Hi Jane. Thanks for the info. I will try to obtain the marriage cert. as that's the nearest I have got so far.I have tried for ages to find them on the 1901 census with no luck. They were all living in Baird Court, Manchester in 1893 (so it says on Ralph's birth cert). so why can't I find them anywhere?. Do you have any ideas please? Thanks Mary

Hi Jane Thanks for that info - a few days ago now. I asked: Please could you see if you could find Alfred Catchpole (??dob and place ob) married to Mary Elizabeth (nee Donegani, Sherrif Hales, Shropshire c1855) and married 1895 in Kidderminster. I would like to know if they had any children and if there are birth details of Alfred, occ etc You found Mary at her birth home, now headed by her brother, but saying she was married but no obvious Alfred. I guess that means no kids so far I have since been able to find the birth certificate - as you suggested. It gives Alfred in 1895 as 34(which would make him 1861 ish), a widower and a clothier, living in Shifnal at time of marriage. His father is also Alfred, a grocer. Thanks for your help Jane Jan