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Thanks Jane - that could be them. I wrote the date for Hannah's birth incorrectly - it was 1850 and she was Jane and Thomas's daughter but I can find no trace of her after that in a census or BMD. Thanks again Kate

Hetty, can't find him in 1851 .............. married or unmarried not even sure if Rosamund would have been around in 1851 census are we??

O dear...think I will go and have a lie down... looking at it again though it must be the 1828 Edward who is Rosamonds father and Rosamond was born 1850/52...so I wasn't expecting to find her on 1841 but possibly on the 1851 so no Edward Trayes on 1851 then...ok .. thankyou for looking. Hetty

Hi Jane, Could you look in the 1841 Census for a George Kay in Bury Lancashire. Not sure of wifes name, but know he had a son called William born in 1837. I know its not a lot to go on, but any info would help, as I've come to a flying halt!!! cheers Michelle

Hi michelle have had a look for William b. 1837 in Bury with a father named George, and have looked for George b. 1790-1820 with a son named William but nothing i'm afraid........... with ANY surname do you know if William was born in Bury? as i'm thinking they are more likely to be living somewhere near his birthplace, 1841 is more harder as you can only search for where they are living not birthplaces...... thanks Jane

Hi Jane, Have looked at info I have got from 1861 census and it looks like William Kay was born in Staleybridge, Lancashire. Hope this helps. Thanks for your previous search Michelle

Michelle unfortunately there are Gremlins in the Ancestry site at the minute and its not giving place names only counties. as you can imagine there are quite a few William Kay*'s in Lancashire, lol so i will keep looking and will send you a pm should i find anything. hopefully they will have it fixed soon, lol Jane

Hi Jane, Re - Croxton . Thanks for your efforts , will try & do what you suggest . Best wishes Brian

Hi Jane, Thanks for the offer of help. Please could you possibly help with the following. I have the marriage cert of William Fletcher b c 1874 Liverpool, i found William on the 1881 with his family, (info below) I've been searching for info on his father John W Fletcher, (born GreenRow Cumberland)but can find nothing, anything you could find would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Jean This is from the 1881 census William J. Fletcher (my GGrandfather) Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874 Relation: Son Father's name: John W. Mother's name: Mary E. Gender: Male Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: West Derby County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: 63 Needham Rd Education: Employment status: Subscribe now to see this information. Occupation: Scholar Registration district: West Derby Sub-registration district: West Derby (Municipal) ED, institution, or vessel: 64 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Florence J. Fletcher 6 John W. Fletcher 33 Mary E. Fletcher 32 William J. Fletcher 7

Hi Jean bad news i'm afraid.............. i can't find your William or John in any other census than the 1881 that you have already got, or even a marriage for John........ this is the only one i could come up with, but think its a bit late Marriages Dec 1877 --------------------------------- Baxendale Mary Ellen Oldham 8d 935 Fletcher John William Oldham 8d 935 sorry xxxxx

Hi Jane, Re: Fletcher family Thanks for looking, I'll keep searching, they've got to be somewhere lol. Thanks again Best wishes Jean

Marna am i cracking up? or is this a different Thomas Savage now? You already asked me to do these 2 years about 2 weeks ago, i posted the results and you even thanked me for doing them, lol Jane

Hi again Jane, I will be so grateful if you could look up in the 1841 census the following family: William Hussey ? Mercy Hussey b 1801 Erith Kent Hannah Hussey b ca 1824 Plumstead, Kent Mary Ann Hussey b ca 1826 Blackwall, Middx I know, I know it's 1841 LOL Thank you so much Liz x

Hi Liz............ do you have these from 1851?? i know you asked for 1841....... am just putting it off for a bit, lol Hannah Hussey abt 1825 Plumstead, Kent, England Servant Lambeth Surrey Maryann Hussey abt 1827 Blacker St, Middlesex, England Servant Lambeth Surrey ----------------------------------------- 2 North st Elizh Hassey abt 1836 Poplar, Middlesex, England Daughter Poplar Middlesex Mercy Hassey abt 1802 Erith, Kent, England Wife Poplar Middlesex Mercy Hassey abt 1833 Blackwall, Middlesex, England Daughter Poplar Middlesex Rebecca Hassey abt 1842 Poplar, Middlesex, England Daughter Poplar Middlesex William Hassey abt 1794 Plumbsland, Kent, England Head Poplar Middlesex JOINER William Hassey abt 1840 Poplar, Middlesex, England Son Poplar Middlesex can't find them in 1841 believe it or not, lol !!! Jx

Hi there Jane, Yes, I had seen Mary Ann & Hannah in the 1851. Thank you so very much for Mercy and her family. Great Work!! A round of applause!!! *clap* *clap* *clap* Liz x

Hi Jane, Sorry for the delay in replying but I have been waiting for a marriage certificate and a birth certificate to come through to shed more light on our findings. To recap: Marriage (Now could be a Red Herring) 12th June 1871 Newport Register Office John Young, 27 years Old, Colliery Labourer, Living in Risca, Father is John Young who is a Tailor. marries Mary Lewis, 23 years old, Living in Risca, Father is Joseph Lewis who is a deceased Farm Labourer Birth of First Child ** NEW IN ** 21st First September 1871, Newport John Giles Young, Father is John Young who is a Clay Miner. Mother is Mary Emma Young, Late Lewis Formerly Terrell Death of Husband John Young January 14th 1873 Parish of Risca. John Young, 30 years old, Labourer. Natural Death from a disease of the Heart. Informant is Coroner of Monmouthshire Birth of Second Child (My Great Great Grandmother) 10th October 1873, Risca Monmouthshire. Elizabeth Ann Young, Father is John Young, Deceased who was a Coal Pit Labourer. Mother is Mary Young Late Lewis Formerly Terrell Wife Remarries . .Again ** NEW IN ** 27th December 1875, register Office, Newport John Woods, 23 Years Old, Bachelor and Coal Miner. Father is Joseph Woods, a Deceased Farm Labourer Marries Mary Young, 27 Year old Widow, Father is John Terrell, a deceased Shoemaker. Now, The Birth Certificate of Elizabeth Ann Young is definitely right. The Birth Certicate of John Giles Young pretty much duplicates the same information so that must be right. The second marriage is a pretty good match to the censsus you found in 1881/1891 which then link to Elizabeth Ann Young's Marriage in 1893. The Death Certificate of John Young is a difficult one to confirm. He is pretty much the right age, occupation, time of death, area although Mary Young doesn't record the event so we can't tie it up. The problem I have now is the first marriage doesn't tie up with the second marriage. Mary's father is Joseph Lewis,a deceased Farm Labourer in the first marriage and John Terrell,a deceased Shoemaker. Now ironically, the ages for both Mary's tie up to birth year of about 1847/48. She is Mary Young, Late Lewis, Formally Terrell on the children's birth certificates. Maybe she put her first marriages' Father-In-Law as her father as John Young knew of Joseph Lewis before his death but she was hiding her first marriage from him? But then, the first child's birth certificate reveals she was Mary Young, Late Lewis, Formally Terrell so why didn't she lie on that? Mmmm . . looking at the brilliant detective work you did with the Censuses 1881 Charles Wood abt 1878 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire John Wood abt 1852 Somerset, England Head Risca Monmouthshire Mary Wood abt 1849 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Wife Risca Monmouthshire ****Ann Young abt 1874 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Step Daughter Risca Monmouthshire Emma L. Young abt 1877 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Step Daughter Risca Monmouthshire John Young abt 1872 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Step Son Risca Monmouthshire 1891 guess what address------------ temperance Hill !!! so looks like your woman !!!! **Ann Wood abt 1874 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Risca Monmouthshire Charles Wood abt 1878 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire Emma Wood abt 1869 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Risca Monmouthshire John Wood Mary 1853 Yeovil, Somerset, England Head Risca Monmouthshire John Wood abt 1872 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire Mary Wood abt 1850 Somerset, England Wife Risca Monmouthshire ( on original, 3 eldest children are named Young not Wood!!) Is there any chance you could look up Mary Terrell when she was young (Born 1847-1850) with father John Terrell (Possibly a shoemaker) in both England & Wales (As one census says Risca & one says Somerset) and then from there I maybe able to find a Terrell / Lewis link or marriage somewhere ? Can you also look at John Wood (born about 1852/1853) in 1861/1871 with Father, Joseph Woods who could be a Farm Labourer? Do you have any gut feelings about the first marriage certificate? Does it look wrong or could it be right but just given misguided info? Paul

Paul, didn't get any clearer then eh, lol??????? am still not 100% on those marriages though, am convinced the 2nd marriage for Mary is the right one, too many coincedences for it to be otherwise, just the 1st gives me doubts............. but like you say, did she just make it all up !!!! just out of interest, did they give addresses on the marriage certs or just towns? going back to the census' this might be John Wood in 1871 - is it another coincidence with the family name that he is with???? **John Wood abt 1852 Taunton, Somerset, England Boarder Bedminster Somerset COLLIERYMAN Clara Anne Young abt 1870 Bristol; Bedminster Daughter Bedminster Somerset Elizh Emily Young abt 1866 Bristol; Bedminster Daughter Bedminster Somerset Jane Young abt 1837 Bristol; Bedminster Wife Bedminster Somerset Louisa Jane Young abt 1864 Bristol; Bedminster Daughter Bedminster Somerset William Young abt 1837 Barnsell, Somerset, England Head Bedminster Somerset Wm Hen Young abt 1868 Bristol; Bedminster Son Bedminster Somerset here he is in 1861 Joseph Wood abt 1831 Creech, Somerset, England Lodger Taunton St James Somerset LABOURER Ann Wood abt 1807 Beaminster, Dorset, England Wife Taunton St James Somerset John Wood abt 1816 Creech, Somerset, England Head Taunton St James Somerset **John Wood abt 1852 Taunton, Somerset, England Son Taunton St James Somerset William Wood abt 1846 Taunton, Somerset, England Son Taunton St James Somerset So even though it gives Johns father as John, it makes Ann a quite old mother, esp. when there is a Joseph Wood thats a lodger!!! more skeletons to add to your closet???? in 1851 the above Joseph was a servant , now with regards to the rest of the mess, lol, i've been seraching for them for 2 hours now, and now think i had better leave it till tomorrow night and look again with fresh eyes !! Jane UPDATE: just thought, lol, John Young must be in Mary whatever her name is, life in 1871 census as son John Giles was born Sep. 71 found him without her, PMSL !!!!! Hester Twiner abt 1848 Caerleon, Monmouthshire, Wales Wife Risca Monmouthshire Robert Twiner abt 1853 Staffordshire, England Brother Risca Monmouthshire William Twiner abt 1843 Herefordshire, England Head Risca Monmouthshire William Twiner abt 1869 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire ****John Young abt 1845 Wiltshire, England Lodger Risca Monmouthshire back to the drawing board, lol UPDATE PART 2............. BINGO Paul where are you?????????????? 1871 Elizabeth Lane abt 1844 Nantyglo, Monmouthshire, Wales Wife Risca Monmouthshire Elizabeth Ann Lane abt 1867 Blaina, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Risca Monmouthshire Frederick Lane abt 1844 Wells, Somerset, England Head Risca Monmouthshire William F Lane abt 1869 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire *****Mary Lewis abt 1846 Warminster, Wiltshire, England Visitor Risca Monmouthshire WIDOW & living next door is..................... Emma Twvrell abt 1824 Wiltshire, England Head Risca Monmouthshire WIDOW - TAILORESS George Twvrell abt 1863 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire John A Twvrell abt 1853 Cumlm, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire William Twvrell abt 1857 Abertillery, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire Phew, be back with 1861 now HOPEFULLY, lol UPDATE 3....... on a roll now !!!! 1861 Church rd Emma D Tyrrel abt 1822 Herghtibury, Wiltshire, England Wife Risca Monmouthshire John Tyrrel abt 1824 Dorchester, Dorset, England Head Risca Monmouthshire RAILWAY ............ Alfred John Terrel abt 1855 Maryshiesbon, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire Arabella Terrel abt 1851 Warminster, Somerset, England Daughter Risca Monmouthshire James Wm Terrel abt 1857 Aberystruth, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Risca Monmouthshire ***Emma Mary Tyrrel abt 1847 Warminster, Wiltshire, England Daughter Risca Monmouthshire Ann Chevers abt 1804 Timsbury, Somerset, England Widow Risca Monmouthshire Esther Chevers abt 1836 Timsbury, Somerset, England Daughter Risca Monmouthshire Marshal Chevers abt 1839 Timsbury, Somerset, England Son Risca Monmouthshire

Hi Jackie the ages don't fit exactly but they are the closest........................ 1841 Eliza Grantham abt 1828 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Elizabeth Grantham abt 1827 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Emma Grantham abt 1832 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Georg Grantham abt 1801 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Hannah Grantham abt 1801 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire can't make out George's occupation, but looks like agent !! and living away from home...................... Jno Gaskell abt 1806 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Thos Gaskell abt 1838 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire ***Geo Grantham abt 1826 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire APRENTICE Chas Yates abt 1826 Lancashire, England Manchester Lancashire Hope it helps.... Jane

Jane I have been digesting this over the last 24 hours and you have done amazingly well by finding these Tyrell's or Terrel's or Terrell's or Twvell's Ok, I am going to recap some of the holes I have and between us, we may get lucky and plug them or find the certificates I need to purchase in order to confirm all In the 1861 Census, you found The Tyrrel / Terrel family living in Church Road, Risca with John (1824) being head of the family, Emma D Tyrrel (1822) the wife and numerous children including Emma Mary Tyrrel (1847) who looks like my Mary Emma Tyrrel as all the other children's names have been switched round too. --- Can we find an 1851 Census for Wiltshire/Somerset (Probably the Warminster area) for John, Emma and children Mary Emma or Emma Mary and possibly daughter Arabella? Sometime after 1851, they moved to Wales and had more children. --- Can you do a search for 1841 Census for John Tyrrel in Dorset. there is 1 result according to Ancestry. If he is 16-17 years old then it's probably my man and you may get other family names from the 1841 census if nothing else. I suppose if it's not a match then we could find another way of spelling the surname !!! --- What's the relationship between the 1861 Tyrrel's & The Chevers who live at the same address? Is Emma D Tyrrel originally a Chevers or are they two families under the one roof? In 1861, Mary E Tyrrell is not married to a Lewis and in 1871 she remarries as a Widow. There has to be a marriage to a Lewis sometime between 1861-1871 census In 1871 census, she is Mary Lewis (widow). her first child is born on 21st September 1871 and she is a Young. The time gap of her Marriage to John Young is really small i.e she must of got married between April 1871 - September 1871. Maybe we have the right marriage certificate but she has put her ex-father-in-law's details on the marriage cert ??? Ok, there are more questions I need answering but I am searching possible Mary mrriages at the moment. Will update this message tomorrow. If you find anything then let me know X Big Hug !!!!

Hi Jane Could you please look up this couple in the 1851 & 1861 census James Stokes b 1807 Erith, Kent Martha Stokes b ca 1814 ? Very much appreciated Liz x