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Oh and one more thing.... sorry Claire in Wales ... re your last line... about cans of worms. I'm absolutely positive that, 'that sort of thing, never, never happens in the 'Land of MY fathers.... :-)
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I have been following this thread with interest and think you may have cracked it Claire. I do hope so. Here's John Arthur working for a Steel Plate Company in Pontymister. As Claire has already mentioned, they had 1 child, not at home.
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
18 Malvern Place Risca Mon, Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
John Arthur Gunter Head Married Male 29 1882 Risca Mon Stockbroker
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Florrie Gunter Wife Married Female 28 1883 Risca Mon -
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Emma Palmer Relative Widow Female 65 1846 Risca Mon -
Not with his family in 1901.
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Shaftesbury Terrace, Risca, Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Jacob Gunter Head Married Male 51 1850 Labourer In Foundry Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ann Gunter Wife Married Female 49 1852 - Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Louisa Hannah Gunter Daughter Single Female 28 1873 - Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Wm Edward Gunter Son Single Male 26 1875 Tongser In Steel Wks Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Elizth Jane Gunter Daughter Single Female 22 1879 Dressmaker Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ivor Thomas Gunter Son Single Male 18 1883 Plate Layer Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Osman Llewellyn Gunter Son Single Male 15 1886 Catcher In Cold Rolls Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ethel Sarah Gunter Daughter Single Female 14 1887 - Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Iscila May Gunter Daughter Single Female 5 1896 - Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Foundry, Bettws, Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Jacob Gunter Head Married Male 40 1851 Labourer Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ann Gunter Wife Married Female 39 1852 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Frank Gunter Son Single Male 21 1870 Tinman Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Louisa Gunter Daughter Single Female 18 1873 Dressmaker Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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William E Gunter Son - Male 16 1875 Tin Worker Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Rosa A Gunter Daughter - Female 14 1877 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Elizabeth Gunter Daughter - Female 12 1879 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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>>Arthur Gunter Son - Male 10 1881 Scholar Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ivor T Gunter Son - Male 8 1883 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Osmon Gunter Son - Male 5 1886 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ethel Gunter Daughter - Female 4 1887 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Tap Room Pontymister, Risca, Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Jacob Gunter Head Married Male 31 1850 Hammerman Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Ann Gunter Wife Married Female 29 1852 - Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Louisa H Gunter Daughter Single Female 8 1873 - Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
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William E Gunter Son Single Male 6 1875 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Rosa A Gunter Daughter Single Female 4 1877 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Elizabeth J Gunter Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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John A Gunter Son Single Male 0 1881 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Francis W Hemmings Stepson Single Male 12 1869 - Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
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Good grief ! ---- theory thats a fascinating Claire.... I've just relayed it to my Dad & he jumped in to life saying "Palmer, Palmer oh yes, thats ringing some bells! ~ i don't know why but that is ringing bells."
Your theory about the vicar makes total sense especially as Cyril's dad had been dead for 8>10 years before he got married, & he had been living with his step-father for a fair while.
I was always perplexed by the coincidence of so many 'Thomas's' in the mix.... & this would explain it.....
There is another thing that supports your idea. Cyril's marriage certificate lists Edward Thomas Gunter, as being a 'Packer.' But Dad said that he was sure that Cyril had to leave school to take over from his Dad in the bakery that they owned. He and his Mom Florence then ran the bakery. He said that she continued to run it even when she re-married. I have a lovely old photo of their old delivery van, with 'F. Thomas' Confectioner, painted on the side. (I'll scan and post that if i can.)
Dad couldn't understand why Cyril's his father 'Edward/ or rather John' as a baker, ~ not a packer. Dad thinks that Edward Thomas worked in Newport Docks, so the description of Packer would make sense if Cyril was describing Edward Thomas (2nd husband.)
And,
one other possibly supporting detail, is that Cyril, named his Eldest son Arthur, Fredrick (Fred being Helena's dad's name) Gunter.
If we find that John had a brother or relatives called Douglas or James --- that will add extra weight - As that was what Cyril & Helena called mayDad.
Fascinating.....
Many, many thanks for the theory... I'll follow the lead as soon as I can... & many thanks Rootgatherer, for the John Arthur Gunter's detail. I will start along that line.
I'll post what I find...... & update my tree accordingly.....
I have ordered a full copy of Cyril's full birth certificate, but thats not due for despatch for 15 days.... I will now be on tenterhooks until then:) This is fun isn't it.....
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Following on from Clare's theory. This marriage shows that Florence had the middle name Ellen so that will tie in with the marriage posted by Greyghost.
Name: John Arthur Gunter
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Newport
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 413
Records on Page:
Name
John Arthur Gunter
Rosina Meredith
Florence Ellen Palmer
Frederick James Smith
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I think I've got to the bottom of this
Cyril's father was NOT Edward Thomas Gunter, no man of this name ever existed.
I suspect that when Cyril married he was asked his father's name and gave his step father's as Edward THOMAS which was recorded by the vicar as Edward Thomas GUNTER.
Cyril's father is far more likely to be John Arthur GUNTER 1880-1922
Certainly John Arthur's death matches up with what you've been told and he can be found on the 1911 census living with his wife Florrie who is probably Florence Ellen PALMER.
The 1911 census shows John and Florrie as having one child who is not sleeping at the house that night.
Only Cyril's birth cert will prove my theory or perhaps I've opened a whole new can of worms and Edward THOMAS is the biological father of Cyril!
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Hi Ian, the birth registration certificates you have for Cyril and Helena are not their full birth certificates.
You can order Cyril's full birth certificate on-line from this site:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1907 (>99%)
GUNTER Cyril Henry Newport M 11a 270
Using the Vol & page number from above, the certificate will cost 9.25 pounds.
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Thank you that sounds like it could be correct, especially as i understand that Edward died when Cyril was about 14, so around 1920, i think. Many thanks. I have Cyril and Helena's wedding certificate, from 1930. On that Cyril is described as a baker, Edwards Thomas Gunter's occupation is harder to read but i think it says 'Packer' and 'Fredrick J. Jewels's occupation seems to read 'Painter'. Dad told me he thought that Fred worked at Newport Docks, so perhaps that implies Ship painter, rather than anything more creative...
The certificates of registration of birth I have, for Cyril & Helen, don't say anything about their parents, it just shows the names, dates & district that the births were registered;
Cyril Henry Gunter, 14/9/1907, reg. entry. no. 423, book 13, witness, W.M.Roland, district Newport, sub-district, Rogerstown.
Helena Jewell. 1/10/1907, reg entry. no. 124, book 170, witness, William Bates, district, Newport, sub-district, Newport.
Is there a way i can post the certificates up for you to see?
Many thanks for all of your help.
Ian
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A possibility for Florence's second marriage
First name(s) FLORENCE E
Last name GUNTER
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1925
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ FLORENCE E GUNTER married
EDWARD J THOMAS
Spouse's last name THOMAS
District NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE)
Country Wales
Volume 11A
Page 575
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Hi Ian,
What was Edwards occupation on Cyril's marriage and birth cert.
What address was on Cyril's birth cert?
Quite a few possibles for marriages of Florence Gunter to Mr Thomas, but need the info from Cyril's birth cert
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Not see Cyril on the 1911 census.
Perhaps you need to buy a copy of his birth certificate to verify his father's name and get his mother's maiden surname.
Name: Cyril Henry Gunter
Registration Year: 1907
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 270
EDIT
Sorry you have his birth certificate. So his parents are Edward Thomas Gunter and Florence Gunter maiden surname Edwards?
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Hello, Can anyone help me Please.
I am looking for my Great Grandfather, Edward Thomas Gunter &/or his wife Florence (I have no maiden name yet) and they had a son Cyril in 1907. In Newport, Monmouthshire.
Cyril, married Helena Jewell in 1930, and they subsequently had two boys Arthur and Douglas. ( my Dad. )
I have Helena & Cyril's original wedding certificate, and both of their original birth certificates, but I can't find an Edward Thomas Gunter, in or around Newport who married a Florence.
Edward apparently died young, when Cyril was about 14,(so possibly around 1920>21) and then Florence apparently remarried, twice, and apparently both times to Men with the surname Thomas....
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Hi
I am also researching my family tree My grandfather was a william Gunter from Hereford but he worked for thins tile works Hereford later in his working life,he was born at Lugg bridge Hereford
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I am looking for my Great Grand father who had son Willian Gunter born in 1891 he was 10 years old in 1901 his mother Alice Gunter was a Widow in 1901
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I am looking for info on the ancestors of my 3x great grandfather, Phillip Gunter b.1776 at Little Birch, Herefordshire. His wife was Mary nee Tylor b.1779 at Little Birch. They married on 24th April 1800. He was a journeyman/stonemason. The Parish records for Little/Much Birch do not show his baptism. Their youngest son, William, a stonemason, was a Roman Catholic but i do not know if his parents were. Thank you.
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