Find Ancestors

winifred married francis j muller1923 paddington sorry dont know when they were born thank you

Marriages Mar 1923 (>99%)
Carvey Winifred M Muller Paddington 1a 100
Muller Francis J Carvey Paddington 1a 100

I don't see them in 1939.


??? (But no middle name, so maybe not);

CARVEY, WINIFRED mmn CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 235


Winnie Carvey
in the 1911 England Census
Name Winnie Carvey
Age in 1911 6
Estimated Birth Year abt 1905
Relation to Head Daughter
Gender Female
Birth Place Wharton Road, London, England
Civil parish Norwood
County/Island Middlesex
Country England
Street Address 57 Endsleigh Rd, Southall, Middx
Marital Status Single
Occupation School
Registration District Number 127
Sub-registration district Hayes
ED, institution, or vessel 18
Piece 6800
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Carvey 48 Head
Harriett Carvey 46 Wife
Harry Carvey 22 Son
Alice Carvey 17 Daughter
Charles Carvey 15 Son
Louisa Carvey 12 Daughter
Edith Carvey 10 Daughter
Winnie Carvey 6 Daughter
Dorothey Carvey 3 Daughter


You probably need the marriage cert, to see her father's name, and her age.

For elimination only -

This is NOT Francis:

1921 Census -
Francois Joseph
Muller
1877
Birthplace: Alsace, France
Residence: Fulham
Fulham
London, Middlesex

With wife Rosina (born 1881 in Berne, Switzerland) , Louise Francoise (1902 London) , and Helen Marie Josephine (1909 London).

He is with his wife Rosina in Fulham in 1939.

Also for ELIMINATION -

NOT this couple - John is also known as Hans, and he married Winifred M Smithers in 1921:

Winifred M Muller
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Winifred M Muller
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 7 Jun 1894
Residence Date 1939
Address 26 the Drive Esher
Residence Place Esher, Surrey, England
Occupation Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number 17
Schedule Number 181
Sub Schedule Number 2
Enumeration District Cmpe
Borough Esher
Registration district 30.2.
Inferred Spouse
John Muller
Household Members (Name) Gender
John Muller Male
Winifred M Muller Female

Francis and Winifred had a son in 1923:

MULLER, FRANCIS GODFREY ARTHUR mmn CARVEY
GRO Reference: 1923 S Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 68


Francis Godfrey A Muller
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name Francis Godfrey A Muller
Death Age 49
Birth Date 15 Jul 1923
Registration Date Jan 1973 [Feb 1973] [Mar 1973]
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Hillingdon
Inferred County Greater London
Volume 5c
Page 1246

This appears to be Francis Godfrey in 1939 - but apparently not with his parents.
Seems to be with his grandmother and possibly an uncle and aunt:


Francis Muller Jr
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Francis Muller Jr [Francis Godfrey Arthur Muller Jr]
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Birth Date 15 Jul 1923
Residence Date 1939
Address 61
Residence Place Willesden, Middlesex, England
Occupation A R P; Capstan Machinist
Line Number 12
Schedule Number 124
Sub Schedule Number 4
Enumeration District Bxjo
Borough Willesden
Registration district 129.2
Household Members (Name) Gender
Beatrice E Muller Female - 2 Feb 1883, widowed [ later married Petro Lusardi in 1950]
Francis Muller Male - 21 Oct 1912, married , special constable & chauffeur mechanic [ name later changed to Franz Gottfried Jacomb MILLER ]
Faith P Muller Female - 20 Aug 1915, single [ later Hodson ]
Francis Muller Male
This record is officially closed.
Beatrice K Hodson Female - 21 March 1904, married
Lena V Watts Female - 6 Dec 1914, single [ later MILLER ]



Marriages Mar 1953 (>99%)
MILLER Francis J WATTS Willesden 5f 633
MULLER Franz G Y WATTS Willesden 5f 633
WATTS Lena V B MILLER Willesden 5f 633
WATTS Lena V B MULLER Willesden 5f 633

Death ????

MULLER, WINIFRED MAY 45
GRO Reference: 1936 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 132

EDIT:

NO - NOT THAT ONE.
that woman was Winifred Ewles, married to Albert Muller, per her probate record.

No birth on freebmd for a Winifred Carvey with second initial ‘M’

How do you come to be looking for this couple? What else do you know about either of them?

The 1911 parents and Winifred were living in Paddington in 1921, at 24, Barnsdale Road

The Mullers were in Kensington

Franz born c1903 is a Butcher’s Assistant…..undoubtedly anglicised his name when marrying

Birth of Franz Gottfried Y Muller OND 1902

winifred's middle name was maud and did have a son francis t hank you all for your help

How do you know the middle name?

What records have you found?

Please tell us ALL you know

I suggest that the child was actually living with his father in 1939, and that the birth year for Francis snr. should have been given as 1902, not 1912

Yes, I agree.

MULLER, FRANZ GOTTFRIED YACOMB mmn HIMPFEN
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 130


Franz Miller
in the 1911 England Census
Name Franz Miller
Age in 1911 8
Estimated Birth Year abt 1903
Relation to Head Son
Gender Male
Birth Place Kensington
Civil parish Kensington
County/Island London
Country England
Street Address 63 Southam Street, Westbourne Park, North Kensington
Years Married 0
Estimated Marriage Year 1911
Registration District Number 2
Sub-registration district Kensington North
ED, institution, or vessel 27
Piece 193
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Mitchael Miller 28 Head
Beatrice Miller 28 Wife
Franz Miller 8 Son
Beatrice Miller 7 Daughter
Conrad Miller 5 Son
Victor Himpfen 14 Brother


The surname is Muller, mistranscribed.
Mitchael's name is scored out - but he seems to have arrived home in time to sign the form. "Baker aboard ship (now at home)"

Franz Gottfired J Miller born 21/10/1902 died in Brent in 1979

Note DoB

Parents' marriage:

Beatrice E Himpfen
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name Beatrice E Himpfen
Registration Year 1902 [1902]
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Islington
Inferred County London
Volume 1b
Page 541
Records on Page (Name)
Beatrice E Himpfen
Michel Muller

From her birth cert on Ancestry, the woman's DoB was 26/10/1904

Muller divorced her for desertion 12/06/1952..............decree absolute 02/02/1953. Image of judgement on the website.

She wasn't with her widowed father in 1939

Hmmm -
according to that tree, she was the Winifred Carvey, without a middle name, whose birth and 1911 entry I posted yesterday at 21:37

ADDED:

She's still just Winifred in 1921.
Surname mis-spelled Cariey in transcription.

The 'Maud' was probably added by the woman herself for some reason.

As she'd abandoned her husband and child, no knowing what she called herself in 1939, or at any other time.

I've never doubted that she was the one born to Carvey/Chapman combo

Her marriage cert is on the Ancestry tree - father Henry William, occ Carman

She lied even then............gave her age as 21, when she was, in fact, only 18. the marriage was in January

1921 Census Of England & Wales
24, Barnsdale Road, Paddington, London & Middlesex, England
Henry William Cariey Head Male 1862 59 Mortlake, Surrey, England Carmen, Out Of Work K W Toomer
Harriet Cariey Wife Female 1863 58 Tottenham, London, England Aay Carman Haybank Westbourne Rk, Station
Winifred Cariey Daughter Female 1904 16 Shepherds Bush, London, England Servant Private


I notified FMP of the errors yesterday