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Hi all ??

I've been looking for a birth entry for my great gran but can't find her. I want to find out who her family were but I'm stuck.

I have her marriage cert

Winifred Kathleen Wynn married albert Alfred Charman 1926 in Lambeth. On the certificate it states her father was William Wynn deceased and says he was an actor.

Winifred and Albert had my grandmother vivienne Rita Charman the same year

I have her death cert from 1961 aged 66 in Lambeth

Why can't I find her birth? Any tips would be gratefully received

For info

1939 Register
9 St Martin's Road, Stockwell, Lambeth, Lambeth, London, England

Household members (2 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule sub number
Winifred K Charman 03 Feb 1895 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 83 1
Vivienne R Howells (Charman) 27 Mar 1926 Female At School Single 83 2


and Albert

First name(s) Albert A
County London
Last name(s) Charman
Country England
Birth date 19 Nov 1887
E. D. letter code ANFH
Birth day 19
Schedule 238
Birth month 11
Schedule sub number 1
Birth year 1887
Archive reference RG101/0343I/015/43
Sex Male
Piece number 0343I
Marital status Married
Item number 15
Occupation Clerical Officer Civil Servical
Line number 43
Address 5 Cleaver Square, Kennington, Lambeth

Welcome to Genes and the boards. The 1921 census ( which I don’t have access to ) May give a place of birth.

Have you considered that she may not have been born on England and Wales? Have you been able to track her father William the actor?

Thankyou alviegal that's fabulous!!


I've looked on the census and I can only see Winifreds with different middle names and not William as a father. Super frustrating...I am starting to think she wasnt born here but then I've no idea where to look next. I have tried looking for a William who was an actor but no luck.

Could she have lied about her father? Lied about her name?

Also to add to the mystery I have a telegram from Buckingham Palace asking her to report for duty there as a maid in 1959 ...I wrote to the palace records office a few years back and they said they have no record of her working there.

Who were the witnesses to the 1926 marriage ?

The names might lead us to Winifred's family.

IF her date of birth was as shown in 1939, she was not that young to be marrying for the first time.....

She could indeed have lied about her father.
Many of us have certificates with invented fathers so as not have to own up eg. being illegitimate.

Did she marry in church?

Surname Given Name District Volume Page
Births Dec 1895
Wynn Winifred Emily Islington 1b 257

there is this birth..?

Think this is her death Kay????

Name Winifred Emily Wynn
Death Age 81
Birth Date 5 Sep 1895
Registration Date Oct 1976 [Nov 1976] [Dec 1976]
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Haringey
Inferred County Greater London
Volume 12
Page 2158

The 1939 gives the DOB as 3rd Feb 1895 so is a different person.

Does the 1961 death certificate not give the place of birth?

names.. That was too early for place of death to be recorded.

I think that fact was registered since some time in late 1960s.?


The Buckingham Palace mention is odd.
Winifred would be 64 years old then ... Rather mature for employment there:-S

It's all a bit weird isn't it?

The witness on the marriage cert was l.j wessel ....this is Alberts sister

They married at a registry office in Lambeth

I also thought it a bit late to be marrying for the first time, also I thought it strange that my Gran was her first child at 31

My Gran used to tell my mum that Winifred would cut her face from photos... perhaps she was a spy ????

Who was the other witness.
There should be at least two?

Do you have a tree on ancestry with her photo on it? There is a tree owned by Colin Charman that says she was a ballet dancer and mentions her working at Buckingham Palace before 1926.
He says witnesses to the marriage were G E CHARMAN, J W BUTLER

1921 Census Of England & Wales
139, Brixton Road, Lambeth, London & Surrey, England

Household members (2 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
Henry G Charman Head
Male 1885 35 Kennington, London, England Tram Conductor London County Council
Albert A Charman Brother
Male 1887 33 Kennington, London, England Clerk H M Stationery Office


1911 Census For England & Wales
41 Dante Road S E, St Mary Newington, London & Surrey, England
View original record
Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Sarah Jane Charman Head
Widow Female 52 1859 Shirt buttonhole cutter Lambeth London
Charles Ernest Charman Son
Single Male 24 1887 Packer fancy goods Lambeth London
Albert Alfred Charman Son
Single Male 23 1888 Packer electrical fittings Lambeth London
Louisa Jane Charman Daughter
Single Female 21 1890 Shirt machinist Lambeth London
Mabel Grace Charman Daughter
Single Female 19 1892 Shirt machinist Lambeth London
>>George Edmond Charman Son
Single Male 16 1895 Errand boy West Newington London


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
37, Chester Street, Lambeth, London & Surrey, England

Household members (7 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Stephen Charman Head
Married Male 35 1856 Official at post office London, Middlesex, England
Sarah Jane Charman Wife
Married Female 32 1859 - London, Middlesex, England
Stephen Thos Charman Son
- Male 10 1881 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Charles Ernest Charman Son
- Male 7 1884 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Henry George Charman Son
- Male 5 1886 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Albert ? Charman Son
- Male 3 1888 - Lambeth, Surrey, England
Louisa J Charman Daughter
- Female 1 1890 - London, Middlesex, England

No sign in Ireland,,,1901 or 1911 and no sign to match details in 1921.

Vivienne birth on the gro doesn’t give mmn


CHARMAN, VIVIENNE RITA
GRO Reference: 1926 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 493

Seems odd

Edit it’s better on freebmd

Births Jun 1926
Charman Vivienne R Wynn Lambeth 1d 493

Winifred K Charman
in the UK, Postal Service Appointment Books, 1737-1969
Name Winifred K Charman
Appointment Date Dec 1918
Appointment Place London
Industry Postal Service
Applt typist

Maybe not as she didn’t marry till 1926

????
May be that is this person, Shirley ??

Births Dec 1900
Charman Winifred Kathleen Croydon 2a 279

Perhaps she was born illegitimately, registered at birth under a different name, and invented a father's name.


No way of proving it, though!

Thankyou all for your replies. I went down a rabbit hole this afternoon

There's a Helen Winifred k tijou born 1896 Lambeth

Mother Ellen tijou married a William Wynn in 1903

I'm trying to find them all together on a census but I'm pretty rubbish at this


Re the marriage witnesses I need to go get the certificate from my mum as actually that sounds correct but for some reason I had a different witness in my notes ...doh