Find Ancestors

My OH's DNA shows a close match with what appear to be a mother and son. There is a very scant family tree loaded, and they've not replied to my messages. So I thought I'd trace them back a bit and see if any matching names turn up.

The mother and son are still alive, her parents are Edith Ethel Hobden and Thomas Scott, mar Dec 1943 Liverpool.
Edith was born in West Derby Sept 1908, and I have found her parents who were both born in Brighton, mar in Holborn and died in Liverpool.

I can't identify Thomas Scott, can anyone help me with him please? I've looked at all the free sites that I have access to.

I think you'll have to buy the marriage cert for further clues, GF.

Ancestry suggests this might be him - but may very well be completely wrong:

Thomas Scott
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007
Name Thomas Scott
Registration Date Oct 1922 [Nov 1922] [Dec 1922]
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Liverpool
Inferred County Merseyside
Mother's Maiden Name Scott
Volume Number 8b
Page number 137

On FreeBMD, it says that's a late entry, due to a correction or change.
The earlier entry:

Births Mar 1920 (>99%)
Scott Thomas ? Liverpool 8b See Dec 1922


It's this birth on GRO:

SCOTT, THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1920 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 133

On the image of the Index, it does show mmn Scott.
There's a cross against it, indicating a handwritten entry at the bottom of the page, which says the same as the FreeBMD entry above, with no mmn, and "See Dec 1922.

ADDED
I don't see a corresponding person in 1939, born between Oct 1919 and March 1920 - unless the Register has the wrong YOB, which often happens.

That man might be a bit young for Edith, anyway, as she was born in 1908.
You need the marriage cert!

This appears to be a second marriage for Edith, which suggests she and Thomas Scott divorced:

Edith E Hobden
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name Edith E Hobden
Registration Date Jan 1950 [Feb 1950] [Mar 1950]
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Liverpool
Inferred County Lancashire
Spouse Edward Fleming
Volume Number 10d
Page number 275


Edith Ethel Fleming
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name Edith Ethel Fleming
Death Age 66
Birth Date 2 Jul 1908 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration Date Apr 1975 [May 1975] [Jun 1975]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Chester and ellesmere Port
Inferred County Cheshire
Volume 35
Page 0112


Edith Ethel Hobden
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name Edith Ethel Hobden
Gender Female
Birth Date 2 Jul 1909 [should be 1908 ] <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism Date 30 Jan 1915
Baptism Place St. Margaret's, Anfield, Lancashire, England
Father William Clements Hobden
Mother Ellen Mary
FHL Film Number 1545925

Thanks for your trouble, AG.

Wonder why Edith remarried with her maiden name?

Maybe Thomas Scott was illegitimate, maybe that is the line with the DNA match.

No help with Thomas Scott -
but maybe Edward -

???
Edward Fleming
in the 1911 England Census
Name Edward Fleming
Age in 1911 4
Estimated Birth Year abt 1907
Relation to Head Boarder
Gender Male
Birth Place Huddersfield, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish Heywood
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 2 Off 41 Schofield St Heywood Lanc
Occupation School
Registration District Number 462
Sub-registration district Heywood
ED, institution, or vessel 12
Piece 23502
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thos Clough 70 Head
Joseph Fleming 39 Boarder
Beby Fleming 43 Boarder [ married 15 years ]
John Fleming 5 Boarder
Annie Fleming 12 Boarder
Lizzie Fleming 11 Boarder
Edith Fleming 9 Boarder
Edward Fleming 4 Boarder
Alice Fleming 1 Boarder


FLEMING, EDWARD mmn CRITCHLEY
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in BURY Volume 08C Page 565


Marriages Jun 1895 (>99%)
Critchley Betsy Huddersfield 9a 435
Fleming Joe Huddersfield 9a 435


???
FLEMING, EDWARD 1907
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1991 in BOLTON (0021B) Volume 38 Page 165 Entry Number 219

Edith's remarriage with her maiden name suggests that she and Thomas had divorced, and she had reverted to her maiden name.



IF (BIG IF) that Thomas Scott is the correct one, it does look as if he was illegitimate.

None of these names appear in OH's tree, or the districts further back.

Maybe the DNA matches don't know the history either.

How close Is close?

They say 2nd or third cousin for the mother. But I have the names of all these people, and the districts they came from, so would expect to find them quite quickly. And we have no 'fathers unknown', so no mystery lines.

Don’t forget that they can be 1 or 2 times removed, which can throw your direct line out a bit. Then there are the mothers not being ‘honest’.
Has your OH got cousins who could also test, just to see if they get a different result?
I ask that because a group of my second cousins ( same family) have vastly different cm matches to me. I also have matches that I share with a 1st cousin but not my sibling.

Confirming the second marriage for the woman
1939 Register
33 Richmond Terrace, Liverpool, Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England
William C Hobden 01 Dec 1881 Male General Labourer Unemployed Married 116 1
Ellen M Hobden 12 Dec 1881 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 116 2
William G Hobden 07 Oct 1906 Male Builder's Labourer Single 116 3
Edith E Fleming (Hobden,Scott,Hobden) 02 Jul 1909 Female Barmaid Single 116 4

Notes refer to Bigamous marriage.....................so that explains the woman's re-marriage under maiden name

The daughter may not be aware of the bigamy, so tread carefully if you have contact with her

Can't see any way forward with Thomas Scott without buying the marriage cert


Fleming was only a stepfather.

1921 Census Of England & Wales
63, Red Rock Street, West Derby, Lancashire, England

William Clement Hobden Head Male 1882 39 Brighton, Sussex, England General Labourer Corporation, Out Of Work
Ellen May Hobden Wife Female 1881 39 Brighton, Sussex, England - At Home
Ellen Mabel Hobden Daughter Female 1904 16 Islington, London, England Tobacco Stripper Odgens Tobacco Factory
William George Hobden Son Male 1906 14 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Warehouse Lad Hardware Merchants Dealers
Edith Ethel Hobden Daughter Female 1908 12 Liverpool, Lancashire, England - -
Albert Edward Hobden Son Male 1911 10 Liverpool, Lancashire, England - -
Alfred Clement Hobden Son Male 1912 8 Liverpool, Lancashire, England -

Marriages Dec 1904 (>99%)
Dorrington Ellen Mary Holborn 1b 1246
Hobden William Clements Holborn 1b 1246

1911 Census For England & Wales
77 Sutcliffe St Liverpool, West Derby, Lancashire, England
William Clements Hobden Head Married Male 29 1882 Army pensioner also policeman Sussex Brighton
Ellen Mary Hobden Wife Married Female 29 1882 - Sussex Brighton
Dorothy Hobden Daughter - Female 8 1903 - Sussex Brighton
Ellen Mable Hobden Daughter - Female 6 1905 - Islington London
William George Hobden Son - Male 4 1907 - Kensington Liverpool Lancs
Edith Ethel Hobden Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Kensington Liverpool Lancs
Albert Edward Hobden Son - Male 1 1910 - Kensington Liverpool Lancs
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
4, Warwick Street, Brighton, Sussex, England


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
4, Warwick Street, Brighton, Sussex, England
Frederick Puddick Head Married Male 34 1857 Bottler Brighton, Sussex, England
Sarah Puddick Wife Married Female 37 1854 - Brighton, Sussex, England
Alfred Hobden Stepson Single Male 17 1874 Grocers assistant Brighton, Sussex, England
George Hobden Stepson - Male 15 1876 Milkman Brighton, Sussex, England
Albert Hobden Stepson - Male 13 1878 Grocers assistant Brighton, Sussex, England
William Hobden Stepson - Male 9 1882 Scholar Brighton, Sussex, England
Frederick Hobden Stepson - Male 6 1885 Scholar Brighton, Sussex, England
Ellen Hobden Stepdaughter - Female 4 1887 Scholar Brighton, Sussex, England
Edith Puddick Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Brighton, Sussex, England
David Mancer Brother in law Single Male 33 1858 Hawker Brighton, Sussex, England
George Goldsmith Nephew Single Male 21 1870 Bricklayers laborer Brighton, Sussex, England

___________________________

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
15, Cavendish Street, Brighton, Sussex, England
Edward Dorrington Head Married Male 30 1861 House painter Brighton, Sussex, England
Mary J Dorrington Wife Married Female 31 1860 Laundress Burnett, Kent, England
Ann E Dorrington Daughter - Female 11 1880 Scholar Brighton, Sussex, England
Ellen M Dorrington Daughter - Female 9 1882 Scholar Brighton, Sussex, England
Edward Dorrington Son - Male 5 1886 - Brighton, Sussex, England
Jessie E Dorrington Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Brighton, Sussex, England

Thank you for your help.

None of these names or places match any of OH's, so I'll hold out for the Scott connection.

Bear in mind that he was proved to have lied when he 'married' Edith...............

Well yes, but he was 'married' to Edith when she had a child.

Thank you for your help.

Obviously...............................

but if he lied about one thing, he could have lied about everything else.

You can't lie about DNA......

:-S :-S :-S