Find Ancestors

Just for ref as I remember the post and who helped on it

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1331866

But at least the 1921 has been released since so there is a bit of a lead there.

So was Mary around and in touch with Ruth after she marries in 1942

My grandmother was German, born karoline Whilhelmina Maria Charlotta Janke (Maria) died Southampton 1928 (TB). My mother was Ruth Hildegarde Lee born born Cologne June 1920. My grandparents married in Solingen Germany 1921 & came to Southampton Britain somewhen in 1921 with my mother Ruth.

Frederick Butlin changed his name when his mother Mary Jane married William Lee. We don't know why but probably for some reason convenient at the time.

I suspect Sheil knows all about the various family members.
Here are the children listed in 1901:


Mary Ellen married John Edward King Quinton, and is at the same address as her mother in 1939.
John died in 1945 , in Dunfermline reg district. He had been working at Rosyth Naval base.
Mary Ellen remarried in 1946, to John Henry Martin, who is also in the 1939 household. John Martin died in Portsmouth in 1962.


Bertram George married Eliza M L Maitland in Southampton in 1913, and died in 1951 in Lambeth.
In between times he seems to have emigrated to the US in 1920, and is on the 1930 and 1940 US censuses with a different wife (Flora MacInnes) and five daughters.

Alfred John was in the Royal Navy 1890-1927, and later (between the wars?) in the RAF. He married Laura L Saunders in Fareham in 1913.
Laura died in Chichester in 1973. Alfred died in Worthing reg district in 1981.

Ernest G (actually Ernest P on 1901 image) - Ernest Perciival - was with Butlin relatives in 1911, and with second wife and children in Southampton in 1939.
Married in Portsmouth in 1916. First wife died 1928. Remarried in 1938.
Was invalided out of the RN in 1916 because of "disease of eyes".
Later joined the Merchant Navy, and was an assistant steward on a voyage from Bermuda to NY in 1927.
Died in Southampton reg district in 1961.

Just to follow up

Ruth H
County Hampshire
Last name(s) Sharpe (Vincent,Lee)
Country England
Birth date 09 Jun 1920
E. D. letter code ECAQ
Birth day 9
Schedule 38
Birth month 6
Schedule sub number 7
Birth year 1920
Archive reference RG101/2287K/004/1
Sex Female
Piece number 2287K
Marital status Single
Item number 4
Occupation Typist
Line number 1
Address 58 Brintons Road, Southampton
Category Census, land & surveys
Place Southampton C.B.
Subcategory Census
Borough / district Southampton C.B.
Collections from Great Britain, EngLand

So Maria was living with William and Mary in 1921

1921 Census Of England & Wales
49, New Road, Southampton, Hampshire, England
1921 census badge
View original record
Add to tree
Print
More actions
Household members (4 people)
Copy to clipboard
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
William Lee Head Male 1874 47 Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Steward White Star Line, Ship Owners
Mary Jane Lee Wife Female 1868 53 Isle of Dogs, London, England Home Duties -
Marie Lee Daughter-in-law Female 1895 26 Germany Home Duties -
Ruth Hilda Lee Grandchild Female 1920 1 Cologne, Germany - -


So guessing Frederick married Maria in germany

Why did Frederick William die as Lee if he was born Butlin

Is this his wife ?
Deaths Mar 1928
Lee Maria C 32 Southampton 2c 114

So why Lee and not Butlin ?

So what about descendants of the first marriage
Have you traced any of them ?

Just for info
1901 census

Name Mary J Butlin
Age 35
Estimated Birth Year abt 1866
Relation to Head Wife
Gender Female
Spouse Frederick J Butlin
Birth Place Poplar, London, England
Civil parish Portsmouth
Search Photos
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish St Stephens
Town Portsmouth
County/Island Hampshire
Country England
Registration district Portsmouth
Sub-registration district North End and Buckland
ED, institution, or vessel 29
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 982
Folio 92
Page number 37
Household schedule number 253
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Frederick J Butlin
36 Head
Mary J Butlin 35 Wife
Mary E Butlin
15 Daughter
Frederick W Butlin
14 Son
Bertram G Butlin
11 Son
Alfred J Butlin
10 Son
Ernest G Butlin
9 Son

Sheil means this one, who was aged 61 at death in 1948:

BUTLIN, FREDERICK WILLIAM UBSDELL mmn UBSDELL
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 431


Frederick Arthur, (whom Shirley at first suggested in her post above, but then edited it.)

Frederick A Lee
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Frederick A Lee
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1916
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: London City
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 39

There was a Lee/Ubsdell marriage in Southwark in 1915.

Births Dec 1916
Lee Frederick A Ubsdell London C. 1c 14

Name: Frederick A Lee
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1916
Registration Date: Oct 1916
[Nov 1916]
[Dec 1916]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: London City
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 39

OOps not Butler. BUTLIN

my Grandparents were Frederick William Lee (Butler) D.O.D 1948 Portsmouth & Maria, Born Karoline Whilhelmina Maria Lee (Janke) D.O.D 1928 Southampton.

my Grandparents were Frederick William Lee (Butler) D.O.D 1948 Portsmouth & Maria, Born Karoline Whilhelmina Maria Lee (Janke) D.O.D 1928 Southampton.

Have you considered another marriage? Unlikely, but.......

I can't see an obvious one though.

Incapacitated is rather a sweeping definition.

My aunt is recorded so in 1939.
She went on to marry, led a full life and didn't die until 2004. I knew her well and the only thing wrong with her was one leg a bit shorter than the other, so she wore a built up shoe.

Which of Mary’s children was your grandparent?

One died in Islington Hospital in 1940 - a widow of 149 Hemingford Road, Barnsbury, according to the Probate record on FMP
(Probate granted to Helen Midgley)

No-one named Lee at that address in 1939………..

EDITED

Death was in April, so probably not relevant, as the age would have been 64 if it was the woman born Sep 1865

Have you tracked her children forward, their children etc. Mary may have gone to live with family in later life and if you can find descendants, someone may know something.

FMP has only four deaths 1950+/- 10 of Mary J Lee born 1865…..one in Surrey also has a postem attached on freebmd, stating that her husband was James