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ErikaH,

Yes that is Mary Ann in the 1871 census with her son Charles. Not sure when she took up with James Fraser, I presume after the death of husband Alexander in 1860
Have not yet found her date of death.
I have been using the 1802 birth/baptism as my default date and parentage for Mary Ann, however I am now looking at a 1796 baptism that would fit the age she gave in 1841 census
"14 Aug 1796 Mary Ann Owens, daughter of James Owens, baptized at Heworth".

Mary Ann and Charles vanish in 1861.
I have located James and Thomas in the 1861 census but neither Mary Ann or Charles are living in their households.
Still scouring 1861 using "Owens, Milne & Fraser" without much success. Workhouse records are very patchy
Arthur

Census birth years can be erroneous. What age was Mary when she died?



Name: Mary Ann Fraser
Age: 66
Estimated Birth Year: 1805
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England
Civil parish: St Nicholas
Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
Town: Newcastle upon Tyne
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 107
Piece: 5090
Folio: 53
Page number: 18
Household Members Age Relationship
James Fraser 86 Head, born Scotland
Mary Ann Fraser 66 Wife
Charles Milne 35 Stepson

???????????

Name: Mary Owen
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 15 Aug 1802
Baptism Date: 28 Nov 1802
Baptism Place: Gateshead,Durham,England
Father: John Owen
Mother: Mary Shields

It is not that uncommon to have a late baptism.

Once you get to 3x great grandfathers you are getting to difficult cms numbers. Experts say that once you get to 4th cousins or around 25 cms then the results become unreliable.

Also, as no one receives the same amount of dna from parents you can’t always rely on that. My own brother and I do not always share the same matches that I do with a first cousin. Sometimes I share matches not with that cousin but with her daughter!

Many thank to everyone for the suggestions, facts and record lookups you have put forward.
I was afraid my original post would be too long winded so I cut it down, maybe by too much.
Let me add a few things. Between 1780 to 1790 there were 17 Alexander Milne baptisms, I have copies of them all. Son James may have been recorded in the militia records 1827-1831, unfortunately those records were destroyed in a fire. Thomas although born in 1833 was not baptised until 1836 in Newcastle. There are discrepancies in the 1841 & 1851 census. In the 1841 document both Alex & Mary have been shown as being locals with James & Thomas born in Scotland, Charles in Newcastle. The 1851 document puts the birth places correct. However in 1841 Mary has her age as 44 yrs which would indicate birth of 1797. In 1851 Mary has her age as 47 yrs only aged 3 years in 10, moving birth year to 1804.
Marriage Certificates for both James and Thomas only show them as "of age" and show Alexander as their father. So very little help there.
The possibility of a previous marriage has not been lost on me, but very difficult without a geographical origin or parents names. There was an Alexander Milne (shoemaker) and Spouse Margaret Patterson who had a son Alexander baptised in Forfar in 1810, but no luck in tracing them.

As stated before many including my half cousin in Australia, believed that Alex Milne & Isabel Brown were Alexanders parents. When my 2 sets of DNA test results became available I set about tracing all the descendants of the supposed siblings. I found two in the US both had DNA tests but there was no trace even at the lowest level of any match between us.

Hence a very large brick wall

Arthur

It's a pity that's another baptism with no mother named.

Can't see any marriage for a James Milne in Menmuir or Kirriemuir before that, though lots in other places in Angus/Forfarshire..

Nor a feasible death in 1787-1860

Working on Arthur's assumption that the first named child, James, is named after his father Alexander's father ie James Milne there is this baptism

Name Alexander Milne
Sex Male
Christening Date 4 Sep 1788
Christening Place Menmuir, Angus, Scotland, United Kingdom
Christening Place (Original) Menmuir, Angus, Scotland
Birth Date 9
Father's Name James Milne
Father's Sex Male
Event Type Christening

Oh yes, of course - I forgot - Alexander 1786 married Mary Ann Owens, or at least the one Arthur's looking for did.

I was thinking that Jean Duncan, the relict of Alexander Miln, were a possible for the parents of Alexander Milne born 1786 in Kirriemuir as the Familysearch transcript gave his Father as Alexander Milne :-)

In case relevant - following LB's post above:

Jean's baptism?

DUNCAN
JEAN
ROBT. DUNCAN/
F
03/06/1759
309/
10 59
Menmuir


Married women in Scotland were often (usually) referred to by their maiden surname in official records.
Until fairly recently, in legal documents married women were referred to as "(married surname) or (maiden surname)"

However, I don't see her marriage to Alexander- nor her death either (only her burial) , for that matter, in spite of the newspaper notice.

The Alexander born 1876 is Kirriemuir, is unlikely to be the husband of Jean Duncan - unless her toy-boy.


???
Alexander Miln
in the UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, 1300s-Current
Name: Alexander Miln
Death Date: Nov 1831
Cemetery: Menmuir Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Angus, Scotland
Gravesite Details
Miln, Alexander buried on: 31 November 1831 recorded at: Menmuir Churchyard (Angus)



Jean Duncan
Birth unknown
Death 1839
Burial
Menmuir Cemetery
Angus, Scotland
Gravesite Details
Duncan, Jean buried on : 30 May 1839 recorded at: Menmuir Churchyard (Angus)


There's this marriage, but unlikely to be the right couple, as it's near Dundee - about 18 miles from Kirriemuir, and approx 32 from Menmuir:

Alexr. Mylne
in the Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910
Name: Alexr. Mylne
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 31 Mar 1786
Marriage Place: Mains and Strathmartine, Angus, Scotland
Spouse: Jean Duncan

This is Familysearches transcript of the above baptism which gives a little bit more info

Name Alexr. Milne
Sex Male
Christening Date 3 Dec 1786
Christening Place Kirriemuir, Forfarshire, Scotland
Christening Place (Original) Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
Birth Date 12
Father's Name Alexr. Milne
Father's Sex Male
Event Type Christening

Now the following is a death announcement in the Perthshire Courier, 13 Jun 1839, I'm posting it because it mentions Alexander Milne and Kerriemuir....it may be relevant but thereagain may not!

At Knowhead of Menmuir, on the 30th ult, aged eighty one years, Mrs Jean Duncan relict of the late Alexander Miln (sic), formerly farmer of Ladywell near Kirriemuir

The child born in Kirriemuir

MILNE
ALEXANDER
ALEXR. MILNE/
M
03/12/1786
299/
10 305
Kirriemuir

Suggestion ONLY.......may already have been checked and discounted by poster. No doubt he will enlighten us....................

Name: Alexander Milne
Gender: Male
Age: 0
Birth Date: 24 Dec 1786
Baptism Date: 24 Dec 1786
Baptism Place: Brechin,Angus,Scotland
Father: David Milne
Mother: Betty Sievwright

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Report a problem
Detail Source
Name: David Milne
Gender: Male
Age: 0
Birth Date: 25 Dec 1788
Baptism Date: 28 Dec 1788
Baptism Place: Brechin,Angus,Scotland
Father: David Milne
Mother: Betty Sievwright

Name: David Milne
Discharge Age: 30
Birth Date: abt 1788
Birth Place: Forfar Forfar
Discharge Date: 17 Nov 1818
Discharge Place: Dublin, Leinster, Ireland
Regiment: Ninety Second Regiment of Infantry
Rank: Private


Name: David Milne
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 28 Dec 1782
Marriage Place: Farnell, Angus, Scotland
Spouse: Elizabeth Sievwright

MILNE, ALEXANDER 73
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 34

If death age is accurate, born latter part of 1786 at the earliest

Ah, I hadn't noticed about the 1836 baptism.

However, as birth certs didn't exist at that time, there is no other record of the births of either of them.

As you say Thomas and Charles were baptized together on 1 July 1836 at All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne. On Thomas' entry it states born 19 Sep 1833. Image on FMP.

Welcome to the boards, Arthur.


There are no baptisms on Scotlands People for James or Thomas - as I expect you've found.
Nor on FamilySearch.

It doesn't mean they were illegitimate. Maybe they weren't baptised, or maybe the records just haven't survived.


???
Alexr. Milne
in the Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name: Alexr. Milne
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 3 Dec 1786
Baptism Place: Kirriemuir,Angus,Scotland
Father: Alexr. Milne

No mother's name given.

Kirriemuir is only 7 miles from the town of Forfar.

But perhaps Alexander's birthplace as stated on the census means Forfarshire, which includes Kirriemuir.
Angus was known as Forfarshire until 1928.


Age stated at death is only as accurate as the information the informant has.

However, his age at death, and in 1841 and 1851 censuses, all indicate birth c1787.

1841 says he was born in Northumberland. 1851 says "Farfor".

You have ‘presumed’ the sons born before 1834 to be illegitimate - could they not have been the products of an earlier marriage for Alexander?

Census records only give the relationship to the head of the household. No way of knowing if his wife is their mother until you find proof

Have you looked for/found baptisms for them?