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In 1939 Doris gives her DoB as 31st December 1897 - NOT 1896 - but, again, NO birth registration as Vernon to fit

???

In 1881 a John Winzell was the mate aboard the Lioness in 'vessels Kent'.

He was born c 1863 Sandwich , Kent.

There is no birth on freebmd in Camberwell for Doris Vernon

There is a birth for Doris Winsell. JFM 1897, which fits a 31st December birth, but NO second forename

???

A John Winsell, master of a barge, was admitted for bronchitis 2nd Feb 1909 at London ( river work) Barge was named 'Eva'. John was discharged as cured in March.

John was aged 46, born c1863, if that gives a lead...

In England, Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admissions and discharges on Ancestry.

Winifred had a third child Alfred John Vernon born on 5th October 1901 in the East Dulwich Workhouse. There is no Fathers name give. The address for Winifred Vernon was 1 Honiton Street Peckham . His birth was registered by Winifred the day after he was baptised on the 18 October 1901, in Camberwell. The first child of Winifred was Doris Ethel Vernon born 1896., and this is the name she used on her marriage certificate in 1916 Thank you Pam

Winifred had a third child Alfred John Vernon born on 5th October 1901 in the East Dulwich Workhouse. There is no Fathers name give. The address for Winifred Vernon was 1 Honiton Street Peckham . His birth was registered by Winifred the day after he was baptised on the 18 October 1901, in Camberwell. The first child of Winifred was Doris Ethel Vernon born 1896., and this is the name she used on her marriage certificate in 1916 Thank you Pam

Her discharge from the workhouse in 1901 with Doris and Emma Vernon says left and pregnant

The mother must have lied when she registered the birth, and said she was married, as the father would have had to give his consent, either by being present, or by submitting a written statement, for his name to be used by an unmarried woman.

Did Doris use the name Winsell?

The Birth was registered by the Mother Winifred Vernon. I have all the details for the daughter born in 1896 as that is the ancestor I am researching, The address was Ruby Street Camberwell and the later child was born at 15 Goulston's cottages Lovegrove Street Camberwell. in 1899. Winifred Vernon has a lot of workhouse records and I know who her parents and siblings are. Winifred had another child in 1901 but no Father's name is given on his birth certificate. I have all the records for the Vernon family. It is John Thomas Winsell that I cant find other records for. Thank you Pam

Did he register the births? Was there an address?

Who was the mother? Did the surviving daughter live with her?

Please can anyone help with finding a John Thomas Winsell who is named on the Birth certificate of his daughter on 31st December 1896 Camberwell London. His occupation is given as Licensed Waterman. On another Birth certificate later on 29 January 1899 he is John Winsell Lighterman/journeyman. He did not marry the Mother of these children. I have searched many records and have public trees on Ancestry with this information. I have no information about a birth date for John Winsell. I have been to the Guildhall Library where they hold Waterman records but did not find him. I am aware there may be variations of his surname spelling. I have searched for his death but again nothing I can work with. I have all the information about the 2 daughters the one born in 1899 died age 3 in the workhouse infirmary. If anyone knows of another search I could try it would be much appreciated. Thank you Pam