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Thank you ArgyllGran I will see if I can find the arriving passenger list now then.

I agree, the immigration date does look more like 1898.

Just realised - Maddie posted 1910 census for Mary Eugstrom (Engstrom) yesterday at 16:05.

I thought it looked familiar when I "found" it on Ancestry just now!

The transcription says she immigrated to the US in 1890 - but I think it's 1898 on the image..

Noted, I see what you mean, thank you.

As Mary Hannah was born late 1852 or early 1853 (birth posted earlier), she would have been approx 48 when she emigrated in 1900, if that emigration date's correct.

It seems likely, then, that any Engstrom children would have been born in NZ - though I suppose it's not impossible that they might have been born in USA.

The last Duckett child (as far as we know) was Emanuel Thomas 1888 - he will be the 13-yr-old Thomas who emigrated in 1902 with Sarah, Hildegard and William James.

As we've found records of the births of 6 Duckett children, and John Duckett was (not) looking after 6 children in 1892, presumably he was the father of all of them.

So, as a wild guess, any Engstrom children would have been born 1888-1900 in NZ, or very early 1900's in USA.

I wish we could find Mary in America in the 1910 census!

May not be, but its possible, worth keeping a note of anyway, thank you.

not saying this is her

in the New Zealand, Electoral Rolls, 1853-1981


Name: Mary Engstrom
Electoral Year: 1900
District: Dunedin
Region or Province: Otago
image says mary hannah a general dealer
address wakker street

Thank you Maddie.

Mary Hannah Duckett, after John Duckett died (if he died) was supposedly re married to a Thomas Engstrom, but I don't think they did marry, I think she just took his name, we cant find a marriage, but they are said to have had 2 children, Mary and Thomas, cant find these children but they could be registered under any name.

frederick the son from 1900 censcus

Name: Frederick Williams
Race: Caucasian (White)
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 21 May 1890
Birth Place: Cornwall, England
Residence Date: 1917-1918
Street Address: 260 Rockland
Residence Place: Houghton County, Michigan, USA
Draft Board: 3
Physical Build: Slender
Height: Medium
Hair Color: Black
Eye Color: Gray

Name: Frederick Williams
[Fred Williams]
Birth Date: 21 May 1890
State: Michigan
Locality, Court: Detroit, District Court

Thank you AG, those births are extremely helpful.

Births of other siblings shown in censuses:

WILLIAMS, FREDERICK mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 209

WILLIAMS, RICHARD mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 194

WILLIAMS, WILLIAM RICHARD mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 180

WILLIAMS, SUSAN mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 188

WILLIAMS, MARY HANNAH mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 202

??
WILLIAMS, CATHERINE mmn JEFFREY
GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 207

WILLIAMS, SARAH ANN mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 174

WILLIAMS, GRACE mmn JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 175


And John himself ?? doesn't fit with DOB on suggested naturalisation record, nor with 1900 census.:

WILLIAMS, JOHN mmn JEFFREY
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 190




One who died ??

WILLIAMS, EMILY JEFFERY
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 200

WILLIAMS, EMILY 1
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in TRURO Volume 05C Page 125


Can't see Henry's birth

I am reading all this, thank you all again.

1881 -

John Williams
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Williams
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: William Williams
Mother: Hannah Williams
Gender: Male
Where born: Kenwyn, Cornwall, England
Civil Parish: Kenwyn
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England
Street Address: Wheal Busy
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Tin Miner
Registration District: Truro
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors:
Piece: 2313
Folio: 115
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
William Williams 47
Hannah Williams 51
Richard Williams 21
Katie Williams 20
John Williams 18
Frederick Williams 16
Henry Williams 15
Sarah Williams 14
Grace Williams 10
George Williams 7


Ancestry suggests this is his naturalisation record :

John Williams
in the Massachusetts, U.S., State and Federal Naturalization Records, 1798-1950
Name: John Williams
Petition Age: 27
Record Type: Petition
Birth Date: 1 Dec 1862
Birth Place: Cornwall, England
Arrival Date: Apr 1882
Arrival Place: New York
Petition Date: 1 Oct 1889
Petition Place: Boston, Massachusetts, USA

That man's a stone cutter - but I suppose that could loosely be a tin miner (as in 1881) or a copper miner (as in 1900)

Yes, I agree with the Williams/Snell marriage.

Here it is again, showing mmn:

John H Williams
in the Michigan, U.S., Marriage Records, 1867-1952
Name: John H Williams
Gender: Male
Race: White
Age: 33
Birth Date: abt 1866
Birth Place: England
Marriage Date: 10 Oct 1899
Marriage Place: Hancock, Houghton, Michigan, USA
Residence Place: Hancock
Father: William Williams
Mother: ??na H Jeffrey
Spouse: Jane Suell
Record Number: 446


You posted his sister Elizabeth Jane's birth yesterday , Alviegal, ( mmn Jeffery), along with 1861 and 1871 censuses.

However, I don't see John's birth. [ EDIT: Yes I do - see next post ]

just because of name
Name: John Hart Williams
Residence Date: 1912-1918
Street Address: Stockton R D 2
Residence Place: San Joaquin, California, USA
Party Affiliation: Republican
Occupation: Carpenter

or

Name: John Hart Williams
Residence Date: 1900-1922
Street Address: Auburn
Residence Place: Placer County, California, USA
Party Affiliation: Hep
Occupation: Farmer .
wife mary m

Ah think I've found a better candidate.

Name: John H. Williams
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Birth Date: abt 1866
Marriage Date: 15 Oct 1899
Marriage Place: Hancock, Houghton, Michigan, USA
Father:
William Williams
Mother:
Anna H. Williams
Spouse:
Jane Snell
Film Number: 001008269


View 1900 United States Federal Census



Name: John H Williams [John H W]
Age: 33
Birth Date: Jul 1866
Birthplace: England
Home in 1900: Franklin, Houghton, Michigan
Sheet Number: 2
Number of Dwelling in Order of Visitation: 24
Family Number: 26
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1883
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Jane Williams
Marriage Year: 1900
Years Married: 0
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Name: Anna Williams
Mother's Birthplace: England
Years in US: 17
Naturalization: No
Occupation: Copper Miner
Months Not Employed: 0
Can Read: Yes
Can Write: Yes
Can Speak English: Yes
House Owned or Rented: Rent
Farm or House: H
Neighbors:
Household Members Age Relationship
John H Williams 33 Head
Jane Williams
36 Wife
Anna Williams
66 Mother
Fred W
9 Son


Emigrated 1883, his mother in 1884.


EDIT Birth of son Fred.

WILLIAMS, FREDERICK SNELL
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in SAINT THOMAS Volume 05B Page 58


Must go to work now so maybe you could have a look at this one AG.


1871 for reference.


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Wheal Busy Mine, Kenwyn, Truro, Cornwall, England

Household members (13 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Williams Head
- Male 40 1831 - Cornwall, England
>>Anna Williams Wife
- Female 43 1828 - Cornwall, England
Elizabeth Jane Williams Daughter
- Female 20 1851 - Cornwall, England
Mary Anna Williams Daughter
- Female 18 1853 - Cornwall, England
Susan Williams Daughter
- Female 16 1855 - Cornwall, England
William Williams Son
- Male 14 1857 - Cornwall, England
Richard Williams Son
- Male 13 1858 - Cornwall, England
Kate Williams Daughter
- Female 11 1860 - Cornwall, England
>>John Williams Son
- Male 9 1862 - Cornwall, England
Frederick Williams Son
- Male 7 1864 - Cornwall, England
Harry Williams Son
- Male 5 1866 - Cornwall, England
Sarah Ann Williams Daughter
- Female 4 1867 - Cornwall, England
- Williams Daughter
- Female 0 1871 - Cornwall, England

Re the marriage posted by Alviegal -

Unfortunately, I don't think that can be John Hart Williams, who was alive in 1902.

Emma's first marriage:

Emma J Ellis
in the Michigan, U.S., Marriage Records, 1867-1952
Name: Emma J Ellis
Gender: Female
Race: White
Age: 17
Birth Date: abt 1862
Birth Place: Cornwall Eng
Marriage Date: 6 Dec 1879
Marriage Place: Penabic, Houghton, Michigan, USA
Residence Place: Franklin
Spouse: James Winnan
Record Number: 1523


James Winnen died 1884:

James Winnen
in the U.S., Find a Grave Index, 1600s-Current
Name: James Winnen
Birth Date: 14 Jan 1844
Birth Place: St Erth, Cornwall Unitary Authority, Cornwall, England
Death Date: 10 Nov 1884
Cemetery: Quinnesec Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Quinnesec, Dickinson County, Michigan, United States of America
Spouse: Emma Jane Rosskilley
Children:
Daughter Whinnen
Rose Ruth Treloar


Emma's second marriage (different transcription of surname):

John Williams
in the Michigan, U.S., Marriage Records, 1867-1952
Name: John Williams
Gender: Male
Race: White
Age: 23
Birth Date: abt 1863
Birth Place: Cornwall
Marriage Date: 3 Apr 1886
Marriage Place: Calumet, Houghton, Michigan, USA
Residence Place: Calumet, Michigan
Spouse: Emma J Whennen
Record Number: 22



Emma's third marriage - so that John Williams presumably died 1886-88:

Emma Williams
in the Michigan, U.S., County Marriage Records, 1822-1940
Name: Emma Williams [Emma Ellis]
Gender: Female
Age: 25
Birth Date: abt 1863
Marriage Date: 8 Feb 1888
Marriage Place: Red Jacket, Houghton, Michigan, USA
Father: Charles Ellis
Mother: Emma Ellis
Spouse: Richard Rosskilley
Film Number: 001008268

Thank you, you never know, trouble is there are a few common names in here although there are also a few less common ones which is good.

No idea if this is John Hart Williams or not but he and his wife were both born in Cornwall.

First name(s) John
Last name Williams
Sex Male
Age 23
Birth year 1863
Spouse's first name(s) Emma J
Spouse's last name Ellis Whemes
Spouse's sex Female
Spouse's age 24
Spouse's birth year 1862
Event date 03 Apr 1886
Year 1886
FamilySearch film number 001008267

Location Calument
County Houghton
State Michigan
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Calument, Houghton, Michigan, United States
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce

Oh dear!!! not good.

I suppose back in those days 50 was elderly.

There are reports in the papers about an elderly man named as John Duckett raping his step-daughter in 1886. I wonder if this was the same John and possibly Rosina? She was born 1875 and the girl was between 10 and 12 years of age. He was found Not Guilty by the way.

I posted this possible death for John which would make him 50ish in 1886 so I suppose he could be described as 'elderly.'

1913/9654 Duckett John 78Y