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Erika - so why do it again 21/9 17.12. That second comment was not there earlier.

I’ve also had two pms and like Erica didn’t quite get the significance.

Thank you everyone for the posts received some information I already have ie newspaper articles in NZ, but the birth and marriage records I will follow up.

I now know that William Henry Webb's wife's name was Alice, but the ones found dont follow through in the census to the family I have. Where is the best site to find passengers departing England for NZ. Have been trawling some. I now know William went to NZ first on his own about 1880? then either went back for Alice or she came out on her own. Children they had in England were deceased before she left apparently from some virus or other at the time prevalent; they had two daughters in NZ.

I am very grateful for help received so far.

Online travel records start from 1890 as previously stated

First name(s) William Henry
Grave contents Body
Last name Webbe
Burial number 8002
Age 66
Area F
Occupation Professor of music
Row 045
Birth year 1855
Plot 188
Birth place England
Purchaser of plot Mrs A.B. Johnson
Last residence 3 Grafton Rd
Country New Zealand
Death year 1921
Record set Purewa Cemetery Burials
Possible cause of death heart failure
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Undertaker name C Little
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 11 Aug 1921
Collections from Australasia, New Zealand



First name(s) Alice
Grave contents Body
Last name Webbe
Burial number 10533
Age 85
Area F
Occupation Widow
Row 045
Birth year 1848
Plot 188
Birth place Ely,Cambridge,England
Purchaser of plot Mrs A.B. Johnson
Last residence Helensville
Country New Zealand
Death year 1933
Record set Purewa Cemetery Burials
Possible cause of death not stated
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Undertaker name "Becroft Bros,Helensville"
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 19 Apr 1933
Collections from Australasia, New Zealand

So this appears to be her in 1881.

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
47, Old Compton Street, St Anne Soho, Westminster, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (5 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles W Webbe Head
Married Male 25 1856 Clerk Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Alice Webbe Wife
Married Female 33 1848 - Ely, Cambridgeshire, England
Harry S Webbe Son
Single Male 3 1878 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Emily Webbe Daughter
Single Female 2 1879 - Bloomsbury, Middlesex, England
Tom Webbe Son
Single Male 0 1881 - Soho, Middlesex, England


??? Can't find a birth for Harry or Emily.

DEATH
WEBBE, HARRY STANTON 5
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in OF WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 295


Name: Tom Webb
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Lambeth, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1883
Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom
Volume: 1d
Page: 339

But if the Alice in 1881 is the right one - who is her apparent husband Charles?

Unless William Henry's calling himself Charles at that point?

Have we discounted the 1876 marriage to Alice Cooper?
EDIT:
Ah, I see Tom's mmn is Cooper:

WEBBE, TOM mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 529



Do we know if WH was actually married before leaving the UK?
He may only have married in NZ

WEBB, EMILY mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 627


St Giles RD included Bloomsbury

Alice Webb 1849, with Emily 1879, Tom 1881, and Hypatia 1882.

Emily Webb
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Name: Emily Webb
Admission Age: 4
Record Type: Admission
Birth Date: 1879
Admission Date: 11 Sep 1883
Admission Place: Westminster, Westminster, London, England


Maybe Charles/William had departed c1881-2 ??


WEBBE, FRANCES HYPATIA mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in OF WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 510


Hypatia Webb
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Hypatia Webb
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Westminster, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1883
Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom
Volume: 1a
Page: 336


Poor Alice - two children died in same quarter of 1883.


An earlier admission for Alice, Emily, Tom, and Hypatia:

Emily Webb
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Name: Emily Webb
Admission Age: 4
Record Type: Admission
Birth Date: 1879
Admission Date: 16 Jun 1883
Admission Place: Westminster, Westminster, London, England



Maybe the same Emily ??

Emily Webb
in the London, England, Poor Law Hospital Admissions and Discharges, 1842-1918
Name: Emily Webb
Admission Age: 28
Record Type: Admission
Birth Date: abt 1879
Admission Date: 9 Aug 1907 [ Discharged 12 Aug 1907 ]
Admission Place: Westminster, London, London, England
Admission Poor Law Union: St Marylebone

Nearest relation: Mrs Blatt [ Platt ?], 22 Foley Street.

If this is the correct family, and if Emily did remain in the UK, it looks as if Alice must have emigrated alone, some time after 1883.

I'm pretty sure it's just coincidence, but in 1901 there's this couple at 22 Foley Street.

H Cooper
in the 1901 England Census
Name: H Cooper
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Cooper
Birth Place: Islington, London, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: All Souls
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 22 Foley Street
Occupation:
Registration District: St Marylebone
Sub-registration District: All Souls
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors:
Piece: 104
Folio: 58
Page Number: 21
Household Schedule Number: 197
Household Members:
Name Age
H Cooper 39 - greengrocer
Cooper 37 - wife, Hackney

There are no Coopers, nor Blatt/Platts there in 1911.

ADDED:
Nor in 1907.
People named Anderson are at that address in 1907 and 1911.
In 1911 there are also Adams and Luber househholds at no 22.

Once again thank you for these latest posts, of significance in the death notice of Alice in NZ is her birth place of Ely, Cambridgeshire.

Interesting regarding the children?? will follow that through.

As is noted W.H. Webbe (as we know him to be, have to look into the Charles name) died in New Zealand in 1921, not England, so that is how I rule out many.

I followed through the W.H.Webbe,(Porter) family and am sure that is not him, the family name is Porter, & Webbe part of his christian name it would appear????

Looks like I have plenty of leads to follow up now. Thankyou.

Have checked out William Henry Webbe / Porter (born to father Webbe not to Porter) but he died in England, so not my man????? I believe.

Another line am now checking is the theory W.H.Webbe maybe did not Marry in England, maybe on the way to New Zealand or in New Zealand.??

Have checked out Births of Alice b. in Ely, c.1848 - 1856

of course Alice Cooper was born there but in following the family trees through I dont believe she is whom we are looking for, but wont discount the possibility altogether. Wish the family still had the volume of the history of the family?? Am going to follow that through with my friend tomorrow, she is the Gr. Granddaughter by the way. Another thing the so called family history mentioned in the NZ article in the Observer doesnt follow through. One Point is A Henry Webbe being the Grandfather of W.H.Webbe, and cousin to the last Baronet the 7th his cousin also called Henry who died in Germany in 1874.

Many a vexed question above.?????

Buy a copy of Madoleine's birth cert for MMN

AG here's Emily in 1911 with a Miss Blatt. John Escow is originally John Iskovitz.

1911 Census For England & Wales
23 Foley Street St Marylebone W, St Marylebone, London & Middlesex, England

Household members (8 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Escow Head
Married Male 39 1872 Ladies tailor Braila Roymand Resident (Roumania)
Mille Escow Wife
Married Female 34 1877 Tailorres Ressbeng Resident (Russia)
Nelson Escow Son
- Male 9 1902 - Black Horse Yard
Charlie Escow Son
- Male 6 1905 - Black Horse Yard
Louisa Escow Daughter
- Female 4 1907 - London
>>Ethel Blatt Sister
Single Female 22 1889 Tailoress Rossieny Resident (Russia)
Becky Freeman Asistant
Single Female 19 1892 Shop assistant Kowna Resident (Russia)
>>Emily Webb Servant
Single Female 20 1891 Servant London

Ah no I see Emily is only 20 years old so not the one born in 1879.


ITZKOVITZ, NELSON BLATT
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in ST MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 479

ISACOVITZ, CHARLES BLATT
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in ST MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 507

I wonder what is the significance of the other daughter's middle name:

Alice Besant Webbe
in the New Zealand, Birth Index, 1840-1950
Name: Alice Besant Webbe
Birth Date: Oct-Nov-Dec 1885
Registration Place: Auckland, New Zealand
Folio Number: 3491


Alice Besant Webbe
in the New Zealand, Marriage Index, 1840-1937
Name: Alice Besant Webbe
Gender: Female
Marriage Year: 1908
Marriage Place: New Zealand
Spouse: Richard Hill Johnson
Relation: Bride (Wife)
Folio Number: 2119



As WH seems to have been so active musically for several years before going to NZ, it's surprising that he's only a "clerk" in 1881 - if Charles is the same man.

I posted this earlier dated 1877 so it does not appear to be the same man in 1881. :-S :-S

MR. W. H. WEBBE’S CONCERT AT ST. GEORGE’S HALL. Mr. W. H. gave his second annual social reunion at the above hall Thursday evening last, when a large number of friends, principally from Clerkenwell and Islington, gave him their support. Prior to the ball instrumental....
01 January 1877 - Islington Gazette - London, London, England

I agree with the "careers" of the various W Webbes, have followed that through and it does not compute! yes the concert above would be him as he was playing from about the ages of 16, 17, 18,19 etc. Also played the organ in "Royal Bavarian Chapel" London in 1874, so was only about 18yrs old then. Was related to Samuel Webbe who was the organist back in 1774. William was also the first organist (since the re-opening) of the Chapel of St.Etheldreda, London, formerly the Bishop of Ely's Palace prior to the reformation but was regained by the Catholic Church. It was opened by Cardinal Manning, and William played a march on the organ which he had composed especially for the occassion. He also formed the Guonod Choir about 1876 (now abt. 20yrs old ) and was its first conductor. He had a Mrs Weldon as a notorious co worker. Several new works were produced for the first time at his concerts in London, and the metropolitan press were unanimous in their praise of the manner in which the choir had been trained. He also trained organists two who became members of the College of organists, one holding the position of organist in Folkstone Parish Church. For two years he contributed to a London musical publication, and also a country paper for which he supplied "Musical Gossip".

So with this background in Music doubt he was a "Clerk". I have tried to search papers past in England to find anything but no luck.

Now to try again to find him?

I spent several hours last night to see if I could make a connection as mentioned above with the "Besant" name as in the daughter Alice Besant Webbe/Johnson.

Have tried to find Henry Webbe, grandfather of William but need to find William's father first. Will ask my friend if she could get Madeleine's Birth Certificate. I printed out an online search of both daughters last night which only gives basic information.

Have printed out all the William Webbs in the time frame and will go through them cross checking.

I need his fathers name, to find g.grandfather Henry Webbe, cousin to 7th Baronet, Henry Webb, who died in Germany in 1874. Williams Father Henry, died in an accident apparently not long after the death of the above cousin??

Have search deaths of Henry for both but no luck yet.?

Will keep at it. Yes its being like a "dog with a bone".

By the way I am over 80 years old and I've got to break this brick wall????