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Thank you all again.

I'm absorbing all of these great details and making notes to try to get the family tree to 'fit' before I go any further.

:-D

ludwig 1832 --- Name: Ludwig Oelsner
Age: 78
Birth Date: abt 1832
Father: Wolf Oelsner
Mother: Friederike Oelsner

BROTHER
Name: Salomon oELSNER

Death Age: 68
Event Type: Sterbefall (Death)
Birth Date: abt 1828
Death Date: 9. Dez 1896 (9 Dec 1896)
Death Place: Breslau (Wroclaw), Preußen [Polen (Poland)]
Death Civil Registration Office: Breslau II, Krs Breslau
Father:
Adolf Oelsner ( WOLF )
Mother:
Friederike Oelsner
Certificate Number: 3575

there is an extensive tree on ancestry with photos but very little documents
tree owner Peter Lax

For elimination -

At first I thought this was a later travel record - but it's not.
This is a different woman - DOB was 17/07/1874:

Else Schuftan
in the UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Else Schuftan
Gender: Female
Departure Date: 21 Apr 1956
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Destination Port: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Ship Name: Andes
Shipping Line: Royal Mail Lines Limited

Born in Breslau, living in Twickenham in 1939 when she was exempted from internment.

Elsa W
Last name Schueftan
Gender Female
Age 35
Birth year 1910
Occupation Secretary
Departure year 1945
Departure day 19
Departure month 2
Departure port Cardiff
Destination port Buenos Aires
Destination Buenos Aires
Country Argentina
Destination country Argentina
Ship name Groix
Ship master's first name L D
Ship master's last name Ducheane
Shipping line Blue Star
Ship destination port Buenos Aires
Ship destination country Argentina
Ship registered tonnage 6136
Number of passengers 118
Record set Passenger Lists Leaving UK 1890-1960
Category Travel & migration

2 crossfield road nw3
secretary

Thank you. Yes, I am considering that Elsa is Anna's daughter.

Please could kind Maddie go back and see if Ludwig Oelsner shares the same parents as Hermann Oelsner? HO is my Great Grandfather; here are his burial records:-

“The burial book of the Jewish Community of Frankfurt notes March 11 1923 the burial of Just[izrat] Dr. Herm. Oelsner. He lived Schumannstr. 62 and was buried on the cemetery Rat-Beil-Strasse, grave no. 80-512 B.”

:-)

Elsa Wichelmine
Last name Mottek
Birth year 1909
Birth place Berlin
Residence town 123 King Henry's Road N W 3
Nationality German
Soldier Number -
Series Home Office: Aliens Department: Internees Index, 1939-1947
Document details Internees at Liberty in the UK, Mot-My
Year range 1939-1942
Conflict Second World War
Archive
The National Archives
Archive reference HO 396/63

same address as anna

in the Jewish Holocaust Survivor names printed in "Sharit Ha-Platah", 1946

Name: Elsa W. Schuftan
Birth Year: 1909
Prior Residence: England
Page: 295
Line: 141

Not sure about this one -

Elise Mottek
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Elise Mottek
Electoral Date: 1952
Street Address: 83 Flat, Greencroft Gardens
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hampstead
County or Borough: Camden, England

Anna and Elsa at 50 Harben Road:

Elsa Mottck
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Elsa Mottck
Electoral Date: 1939
Street Address: 50 1'laistowe-J [ Harben Road on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hampstead
County or Borough: Camden, England

Elsa Wilhelmine Mottek
in the UK, World War II Alien Internees, 1939-1945
Name: Elsa Wilhelmine Mottek
Gender: Female
Nationality: German
Birth Date: 2 Apr 1909
Birth Place: Berlin, Germany

Address: 123 King Henry's Road, W3

Secretary, employed at Bloomsbury House.

Exempted from internment, 19/12/1939

Posting 1939 for our reference:

Elsa Mottek
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Elsa Mottek [Elsa Schuliefter]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 2 Apr 1909
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 123 King Henry's Road
Residence Place: Hampstead, London, England
Occupation: Secretary, Translator, and Interpreter For 4 Languages
Line Number: 25
Schedule Number: 9
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: AKBR
Borough: Hampstead
Registration district: 8/1
Household Members Age
Anna Mottek 64 - 31 July 1875
Elsa Mottek 30


The surname transcribed as Schuliefter is written as Schufftert on the image, and then corrected in red to Schueftan.
There's another note only partially visible -- a date 30.1.194(3 ?) (5 ?)

Can't see a marriage in the UK.

The ages would suggest that Elsa is Anna's daughter - but not necessarily.

I went back to the 1939 Register for Anna Mottek to explore where she was living at the time and there is also an ELSA MOTTEK born 1909 at the same address!

I am guessing that Elsa is Anna's daughter?

But I cannot find any trace of her before or after 1939. Any eagle eyes out there, please?

Thank you.

Is it possible please to see whether this chap had a brother HERMANN OELSNER?

Name: Ludwig Oelsner
Age: 78
Birth Date: abt 1832
Death Date: 24 Mrz 1910 (24 Mar 1910)
Death Place: Frankfurt, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt I
Father: Wolf Oelsner
Mother: Friederike Oelsner
Certificate Number: 325

This would tie up a loose end.

Thank you.

Sadly, theirs is not the first time in our family.
:-( :-(

its so said but i thought you might want to know

maddie

Thank you again.

I had a dread that some of this family had met their fates in one of the Concentration Camps. Sadly, that is the case. :-( :-(

sister
me: Julie Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Birth Date: 24 Okt 1871 (24 Oct 1871)
Birth Place: Frankfurt, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt a.M., Standesbuecher vor 1876
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Certificate Number: 2058

Name: Julie Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Age: 28
Birth Date: 24 Okt 1871 (24 Oct 1871)
Marriage Date: 6 Sep 1900
Marriage Place: Frankfurt, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt I
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Spouse: Alfred Gudeman
Certificate Number: 1773

in the Czechoslovakia, Selected Jewish Holocaust Records, 1938-1945 (USHMM)
Czechoslovakia, Selected Jewish Holocaust Records, 1938-1945 (USHMM) No Image
Text-only collection

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Name: Julia Gudemann
[Julia Celsner]
Age: 73
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date: 29 Feb 1944
Place: Terezín
Residence: Berlin

Name: Julie Gudemann
Birth Date: 24 Oct 1871
Death Date: 19 Sep 1942
Death Place: Terezin (Theresienstadt), Okres Litoměřice, Ústecký (Usti nad Labem), Czech Republic
Cemetery: Theresienstadt Concentration Camp
Burial or Cremation Place: Terezin (Theresienstadt), Okres Litoměřice, Ústecký (Usti nad Labem), Czech Republic

Name: Alfred Gudemann
Birth Date: 26 Aug 1862
Birth Place: Atlanta, Fulton County, Georgia, United States of America
Death Date: 9 Sep 1942
Death Place: Terezin (Theresienstadt), Okres Litoměřice, Ústecký (Usti nad Labem), Czech Republic
Cemetery: Theresienstadt Concentration Camp
Burial or Cremation Place: Terezin (Theresienstadt), Okres Litoměřice, Ústecký (Usti nad Labem), Czech Republic

in the U.S., Jewish Transmigration Bureau Deposit Cards, 1939-1954 (JDC)
Beneficiary: Alfred Gudeman
Accompanied By: Julia Gudeman;Margaret Gudeman
Depositors: Theodore L Gudeman
Location: Berlin
Source: Roll 07 - Alphabetical Index to Case Beneficiaries, F-K


Name: Friederike Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Birth Date: 4 Mai 1866 (4 May 1866)
Birth Place: Frankfurt, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt a.M., Standesbuecher vor 1876
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Certificate Number: 696

Name: Friederike Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Age: 37
Birth Date: 4 Mai 1866 (4 May 1866)
Marriage Date: 12 Jun 1903
Marriage Place: Frankfurt am Main, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt am Main
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Spouse: Heinrich Kahn
Certificate Number: 854

1901
Name: Frieda Kahn
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Henry Kahn
Birth Place: Mains, Germany
Civil Parish: Paddington
Search Photos: Search for 'Paddington' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration District: Paddington
Sub-registration District: St Mary, Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Neighbors:
Piece: 9
Folio: 20
Page Number: 31
Household Schedule Number: 213
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Kahn 45
Frieda Kahn 34
Alice Kahn 11
Harriet Kahn 9
Rosie Kahn 7

Name: Frieda Kahn
Death Age: 68
Birth Date: abt 1866
Registration Date: Jul 1934
[Aug 1934]
[Sep 1934]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Hampstead
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 533

KAHN, ROSIE OELSNER
GRO Reference: 1894 J Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 16

Added detail in case of interest -

Maddie posted the Alien Internees record. As well as the details Maddie posted, the image also says she was a "private teacher of German".

The heading on the document is "Female Enemy Alien - Exemption from Internment - Refugee".
The record is dated 19/12/39, and says "Decision of tribunal: exempt from internment."
It also says she did not want to be repatriated, and that she was a "refugee form Nazi opression".

anna's sister

Name: Wilhelmine Oelsner
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28. Aug 1868 (28 Aug 1868)
Birth Place: Frankfurt (Main), Hessen-Nassau, Preussen, Germany
Residence Place: Frankfurt (Main), Hessen-Nassau, Preußen, Germany
Father:
Phil. Ludwig Oelsner
Mother:
Emilie Jaffe
FHL Film Number: 342035


sadly
Name: Wilhemina Oelsener
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Aug 1868
Death Date: 1942
Death Place: Czechoslovakia
Cause of Death: Holocaust-related
Relationship: Extended Family Members
Role: Relative of Interviewee
Household:
Name Relationship
Edgar Smith Father
Florence Goldsmith Mother
Ilse Goldsmith Sister
Lenore Goldsmith Ex-Wife
Hilda Pearl Goldsmith Wife
Erich Metz Uncle (Maternal) (Uncle)
Gerda Bernheimer Aunt
Peter Metz Cousin (Maternal) (Cousin)
Wilhemina Oelsener Extended Family Members
Margie* Plotke* Sister-in-law
Walter Goldsmith Self (Head)

Name: Wilhelmine Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Age: 31
Birth Date: 28 Aug 1868
Marriage Date: 4 Okt 1899 (4 Oct 1899)
Marriage Place: Frankfurt am Main, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt am Main
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Spouse: Josef Metz
Certificate Number: 1964

Name: Wilhelmine Oelsner
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Age: 31
Birth Date: 28 Aug 1868
Marriage Date: 4 Okt 1899 (4 Oct 1899)
Marriage Place: Frankfurt am Main, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt am Main
Father: Ludwig Oelsner
Mother: Emilie Oelsner
Spouse: Josef Metz
Certificate Number: 1964

son
H Edgar A Metz
Arrival Date: 20 Oct 1938
Birth Date: abt 1901
Last Permanent Address: Germany
Other Last Permanent Address: Berlin
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: German;Hebrew (German)
Place of Origin: Germany
Friend's Name: Henry Lipmanson
Port of Departure: Bremen, Germany
Port of Arrival: New York, New York, USA
Ship Name: Europa

Name: Harrÿ Edgar Alexander Metz
Gender: männlich (Male)
Birth Date: 1 Jan 1901
Birth Place: Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Berlin I, II
Father: Joseph Metz
Mother: Wilhelmine Metz

Name: Edgar Metz
Gender: Male
Race: White
Age: 49
Birth Date: 1 Jan 1901
Birth Place: Berlin
Death Date: 27 Oct 1950
Death Place: Lansdowne, Delaware, Pennsylvania, USA
Father: Joseph Metz
Mother: Wilhelmena Oelsner
Certificate Number: 84258

Oooh, thank you all.

Need to digest this.

:-D :-D

parents

Name: Ludwig Oelsner
Age: 78
Birth Date: abt 1832
Death Date: 24 Mrz 1910 (24 Mar 1910)
Death Place: Frankfurt, Hessen (Hesse), Deutschland (Germany)
Civil Registration Office: Frankfurt I
Father: Wolf Oelsner
Mother: Friederike Oelsner
Certificate Number: 325

Name: Emilie Oelsner
Maiden Name: Jaffe
Gender: weiblich (Female)
Age: 81
Birth Date: abt 1844
Death Date: 9 Jan 1925
Civil Registration Office: Berlin XIIa
Death Place: Berlin, Berlin, Deutschland (Germany)
Certificate Number: 53