Find Ancestors

Thank you

Yes I have looked into the family before but this time I'm after finding their birth so I can get a birth certificate i'll have to take pot luck and go for 1

This is the one Sylann is assuming is John in 1939:

John Kelly
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: John Kelly
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 14 Jul 1882
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 162
Residence Place: Heywood, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Store Mason
Line Number: 40
Schedule Number: 29
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: NVAX
Borough: Heywood
Registration district: 462a/2
Inferred Spouse:
Florence Kelly
Household Members Age
John Kelly 57
Florence Kelly 54
John Murphy 30

and his marriage:

Florence Maud Spiller
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Florence Maud Spiller
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Chorlton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 1540
Records on Page:
Name
John Kelly
Florence Maud Spiller




But I've been through all this on the other thread, and don't think I can add anything new.

I'm gone..........................

I agree that we've looked at this family before.

On the 1891 census, James is "Master M" and then there's a word added which looks like Fairy - name of ship??
That rang a bell with me.


ADDED:
Yes, here it is:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1388945

Catherine is SEVEN in 1891 - so her birth could not possibly have been July 1886, unless her father didn't know how old she was in 1891

I'm not sure if this is the same family as in 1891:

Catherine (the mother) is aged 32 on the 1891 census above, but 36 on the 1901 census. James was 35 in 1891, but 37 in 1901.
James's occupation has also changed from "Master M" (mariner ?) in 1891 to General labourer in 1901.


Catherine Kelly
in the 1901 England Census
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: James Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Neighbors:
Piece: 3693
Folio: 79
Page Number: 11
Household Schedule Number: 66
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 37 - general labourer
Catherine Kelly 36
John Kelly 19
Mary Kelly 2

Address: 11 Lower Chatham Street.


???
KELLY, MARY mmn FOX
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 256

Birth years on ANY census are only as given - or deduced, based on age.

Two reasons for birth year being wrong in 1939 - the person wasn't sure of birth year - or they lied.

There must be another thread - FMP alerts me to having accessed the 1891 census previously

How did you decide that FOX was the woman who gave birth to these three?

Ancestry give Catherine Fox as a hint. But he could have married Catherine McNally in 1880 or Catherine Davies in 1882 both in Manchester.

All need to be checked out.

There are three possible births for John on Freebmd, although they have second names. Have you checked these out?


Edit: I read somewhere recently that even the birthdates on the 1939 could be a year out. But I can’t remember the explanation of why.

Yes, I know you have them, but we don't, and as you know, it helps us to be able to see the actual records.
Sometimes there are clues to be picked up.

Thank you but I have all the censuses marriages just can't find their birth certificates

?? Is this the family ??

John Kelly
in the 1891 England Census
Name: John Kelly
Gender: Male
Age: 9
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1882
Father: James Kelly
Mother: Catherine Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Residence Place: Manchester, Chorlton on Medlock, Lancashire, England
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, Institution or Vessel: 36
Neighbors:
Piece: 3186
Folio: 143
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 35
Catherine Kelly 32 - Manchester
John Kelly 9
Catherine Kelly 7
Annie Kelly 2
William Goffe 39
Edward Goffe 11
Mary H Goffe 15


???

Catherine Fox
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Catherine Fox
Registration Year: 1882
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Chorlton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 1155
Records on Page:
Name
Catherine Fox
James Kelly



???
Catherine Fox
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Catherine Fox
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relationship to Head: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 15 Allin St
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Braid Tenter Factory Operative
Registration District: Chorlton
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors:
Piece: 3920
Folio: 22
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Lawles 28
Lewis Lawles 27
William Lawles 7
Robert Lawles 4
Bridget Fox 23 - unmarried, lodger
Catherine Fox 21 - unmmarried, lodger
Mary A. Fox 1

You have some typos in the first paragraph so it doesn’t make much sense.

Does the GRO give the same mother’s surname for both of them?

Have you found them on the 91,01 & 1911 census - that should give you clues to the mother. Then you can check out marriages for the mother.

But is does look as though you do need a birth certificate which may indicate the mother’s maiden name and any other married names she may have.

Trying to find which birth certificate to get is their any way of finding out parent

I have John Kelly 14 July 1882, Catherine Kelly 28 July 1886 and Annie Kelly Aug 1888 Dates I've got from 1939 register etc, I've looked on GRO and can't see any that match their mothers maiden , name is Fox Just wondering if their mother put her married name Kelly would it show up as though they were Illegitimate
Any advice would be welcome

Thank you