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Missed that second forename snippet ;-) ;-)

But is the marriage I posted relevant? No feedback yet on that

BUT.........this thread is about Harriet and her background, so the way forward can only be through HER marriage cert

The info I have came from a friend who had it from her mother who is Abraham's daughter-in-law. She is the one who remembers the name Innocent. I've asked her to put her thinking cap on to see if she can remember anything else! ErikaH, I have asked my friend about the marriage and I'm waiting for her to get back to me.

Annie

Speculation about the 1951 marriage -

there's a Joyce A Riley of the right age in Ebbw Vale on the 2019 ER.

Did your friend's mother actually know Harriet?

That's one of the questions I've asked. I'm hoping for some answers soon!

Annie

I found a death record for a Harriet Arnold in 2001 but in Monmouth district which is quite a way from where she lived. However, I had some feedback from my friend's mother who remembered that Harriet was about 93 when she died and she died in hospital. The nearest hospital is in Monmouth district so it's possible that this death is our Harriet's. It gives her date of birth as July 27th 1908. I'm going to go along with this for a while and see where it gets me.

Annie

Re-posting from page one - feedback would be good

With no clue about Harriet's birth year, finding her will be difficult, to say the least

there is NO birth for Innocent with either surname - what is your 'source'?

???????????
1939
In Buildings Adjoining Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England
Harriet Arnold 27 Jul 1907 Female Hop-Picker Married 104 61

Further up the page are a family named Gibbs, but it's probably sheer concidence

Thanks, ErikaH, the 1939 is now looking possible for our Harriet, although there is a discrepancy with the year of birth. She's not with Abraham on the 1939. I'm going to look closer at that Gibbs family, probably coincidence as you say but I've learned not to rule out anything in this game. I'm going to assume the death record is correct for now until I can prove otherwise.

Annie

I thought this was about finding Harriet's antecedents?

The only way to have even a glimmer of a chance is to get a copy of the marriage cert

As for the one year difference in info re birth year..........that's by no means unusual.

BTW, there are two closed records immediately below Harriet's record on the 1939 register. MAY be connected, but no way of knowing for certain

I wondered about the closed records. The only marriage which fits is to a Harriet Gibbs but the children's mother's maiden name is Smith on their birth certs. Hopefully, it will give me Harriet's father's name, although there's no guarantee of that! I've also learned that the half sister shared a mother with the others. I'll send for the cert this afternoon. I must leave this now to go shopping or we won't be eating this weekend! I'm grateful for your interest and help.

Annie

I'm being very cautious here but I've stumbled across a Harriet Smith, born in East Dean, Gloucestershire, father Enos, mother Caroline. The birth is right and it's giving me a link to the death I've got. The 1911 also lists a sibling, Ethel and this was the name given to Harriet's daughter, the half-sister. It gives the exact death date as 30 January 2001. As I said, I'm treating it very suspiciously for the moment and I'll have a closer look at it later.

Annie

Edit: going back to the hop-pickers, it seems that Harriet's mother may have been widowed and married a William Gibbs so the couple on the 1939 could be her mother and step-father This would be why she married as Gibbs but her maiden name was Smith. Speculation, maybe, but worth a closer look, I think.

1939 for the Gibbs. Also Caroline Gibbs 14 Aug 1887 and 4 closed records underneath.

In Buildings Adjioning Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England


(1 person)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Gibbs 01 Mar 1898 Male Hop-Picker Married 104 40

In Buildings Adjioning Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England


First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Caroline Gibbs 21 Aug 1887 Female Hop-Picker Married 104 41

Re the family with parents Enos and Caroline ( Enos = Innocent ???);

Posting 1911 for our reference:

Harriett Smith
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Harriett Smith
Age in 1911: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1909
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: East Dean, Gloucestershire
Civil Parish: East Dean
Country: England
Street Address: Deans Common, Mitcheldean, Gloucestershire
Registration District Number: 323
Sub-registration District: East Dean
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Piece: 15223
Household Members:
Name Age
Enos Smith 23
Caroline Smith 24
Harriett Smith 2
Ethel Smith 5
Jemima Smith 3/12

All the children said to be born in East Dean.


????
SMITH, ETHEL SARAH mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1908 S Quarter in KINGTON Volume 06A Page 518

EDIT: Maybe not - two years younger than in 1911.


????
SMITH, JEMIMA mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in KINGTON Volume 06A Page 470

I can't see Harriett's birth.


Not at all sure about those births - wrong RD.
A tree on Ancestry says Caroline's name was Davies - but I don't see a marriage.

The 1911 that you found for a possible Harriet.

1911 Census For England & Wales

Deans Common Mitcheldean Gloucestershire, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Enos Smith Head - Male 23 1888 Labourer Worcestershire Tenbury
Caroline Smith Wife Married Female 24 1887 - Gloucestershire N K
Harriett Smith Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Gloucestershire East Dean
Ethel Smith Daughter - Female 5 1906 - Glos East Dean
Jemima Smith Daughter - Female 0 1911 - Glos East Dean

One of three marriages which Ancestry links to that 1911:

Caroline Davies
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Caroline Davies
Spouse Surname: Gibbs
Registration Year: 1914
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Bromyard
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 1221
Records on Page:
Name
Caroline Davies
William Gibbs


Ancestry's transcription of 1939 gives Caroline's DOB as 14 aug 1887.
The figure is hard to read on the image - could be 14, 21, or 24

Oohh, you've been busy while I've been away. Thank you. It's looking very much like this is Harriet's family. Innocent was, according to the family, Harriet's brother but I can't find a trace of him. My friend's mum, bless her, is in her late 80s and things are coming back to her bit by bit but she says she knew very little of the family because they never had much to do with them. She said there was also a sister, Naomi, who went to New Zealand but I haven't had chance to follow that up yet. It's beginning to look like Caroline had four children with Enos and another ten with William. It also seems that William was sixteen when they married and Harriet had Ethel when she was fourteen.

Annie

???

ARREST OF TWO GAMEKEEPERS- ... which took place there was a struggle for the loaded guns which the keepers carried. One of the guns was discharged, and Enos Smith, a gipsy, received the shot in the arm. He was so badly injured that amputation was necessary, and he died early on Thursday....
21 November 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England



"...the arrest of the accused, the charge was one of wounding two men of the gipsy class, Job Smith and Annes (or Enos) Smith. Since then Enos Smith had died from his wound, and it had become necessary to consider a slightly different form of charge, namely, that of manslaughter..."
12 December 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England


Job, Annes, Hodgkins were all brothers. Annes, called Enos was 25 and had a tent at Woodhall Common, Staunton-on- Wye.

"There was also there, living in tents, his brother Hodgkins and the women and children."

Job was a hawker and labourer who usually lived in a tent at Sutton St Nicholas. Another brother Jeremiah, usually lived in a tent at Brynmawr but was at Woodhall Common in a tent with Caroline Johns when the incident took place.




FATAL RESULT TO GUNSHOTS- .......A scuffle took place, and Enos Smith and his brother took hold of the gun. During the struggle in a bush the gun went off, the charge entering Enos Smith's left arm and his brother's right arm. At the hospital Enos Smith's arm was amputated, and after ...
23 November 1911 - Ross Gazette - Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, England

This one says he leaves "a widow and 3 children of tender age, the youngest being 12 months old."

SUN•DIAL STOLEN FROM CHURCHYARD.-At the Leominster County Polioe Court, on Wednesday, Enos Smith, a gipsy, was charged with stealing a sun-dial from Middleton Churchyard between the 17th and 22nd April, valued at £2, the property of the Vicar
09 May 1911 - Tenbury Wells Advertiser - Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, England

??

England & Wales Births 1837-2006

First name(s) Enos
Last name Smith
Birth quarter 2
Birth year 1886
Mother's maiden name Smith
District Weobley
County Herefordshire
Country England
Volume 6A
Page 526

Ye gods! I would never have imagined where this would take us. Thank you so much. ErikaH did mention they might have been gypsies. I'm going to look up those newspaper reports now and copy them.

Annie