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Every birth cert has the mother's name - at least - and the address at which the birth occurred.

I've taken he plunge and ordered the one for John fingers crossed

I think I've seen the1901 census before for Annie and yes it is her don't know why she was sent there but it has been spoken about in the family
I have got Catherine's Marriage certificate her father was James Joseph Kelly
and I have the marriage for James and Catherine Fox
Not sure why Joseph is in one marriage and not the other ? the only thing I've come up with Catherine James Daughter married a Joseph Turner so thinking the curate got confused ??
Yes That is Mary's birth

Back to the birth which one do you think will tell me what I want to know Parents names where they were living
John born before they married
Catherine mothers name Kelly
Annie no MMN
But the dates seem right

Just in case young Catherine and Annie in 1891 are not your family - (or even if they are)

???
Katie Kelly
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Katie Kelly
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Tottington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
Town: Tottington
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Holly Mount Poor Law School
Registration District: Bury
Sub-registration District: Tottington
ED, institution, or vessel: Holly Mount
Neighbors:
Piece: 3635
Folio: 128
Page Number: 5
Household Schedule Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Annie Kelly 13 - Manchester, attending school
Katie Kelly 15 - Manchester, dressmaking

(and many others)


Have you found young Catherine or Annie anywhere else in 1901?

In 1901, there are three families at No 11 - one of them is a widow, Annie Fox and her two children. Possibly related, although not relevant to the specific enquiry on this thread.

I find it odd that Catherine is ‘living on own means’ with a hubby who is a general labourer

there is also this
James
Last name Kelly
Birth year 1887
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Fox
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8C
Page 797 but not un 1891 cesus above

You haven’t said if you’ve got Catherine’s marriage cert. Who, when, where did she marry?

Normally, if there's no mmn, it means the birth was illegitimate, and the child's name WAS the mmn.

However,there's always the possibility that the unmarried mother lied, or misunderstood the registrar's questions, or possibly the registrar misunderstood the mother's answers.

Was Catherine Fox a spinster at marriage to James Kelly, or was her maiden name something other than Fox?

As ErikaH has asked - do you have your grandmother's birth cert to be sure of her father's name?
Or else her marriage cert?

For our reference -

Mary's birth:

KELLY, MARY mmn FOX
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 256

and in 1901:

Mary Kelly
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Mary Kelly
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: James Kelly
Mother: Catherine Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Neighbors:
Piece: 3693
Folio: 79
Page Number: 11
Household Schedule Number: 66
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 37 - Manchester, general labourer
Catherine Kelly 36 - Manchester, living on own means
John Kelly 19 - Manchester
Mary Kelly 2



John Kelly
in the 1891 England Census
Name: John Kelly
Gender: Male
Age: 9
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1882
Father: James Kelly
Mother: Catherine Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Residence Place: Manchester, Chorlton on Medlock, Lancashire, England
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, Institution or Vessel: 36
Neighbors:
Piece: 3186
Folio: 143
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 35 - Master M [mariner ??]
Catherine Kelly 32
John Kelly 9
Catherine Kelly 7
Annie Kelly 2
William Goffe 39 - lodger
Edward Goffe 11
Mary H Goffe 15


Are you quite sure that's the same family in 1891 and 1901?
The parents' ages don't match, and James seems to have gone from being a Master M[ariner?] to a general labourer.

Yes I was thinking of that BUT you've always said if the MMN isn't on they were Illegitimate ? so yes John could be right as he was born before they married but Catherine and Annie they were married?
so do you think these could be them? and would it have the MMN

Get the PDF’s - they’re cheaper

If John was born before the marriage his name would have been Fox

I assume you have your grandmother’s marriage cert, which names James as her father?

I've looked on GRO not sure about posting before I've gone over my past posts couldn't see it

on GRO + others On GRO their is one for John no mothers name and born before the marriage I've got ??
Catherine MMN Kelly ??
Annie no MMN

Could these be the ones ? I want to send for birth certificate

Where have you looked?

Have you posted about this before?

I've been doing my tree for years but I always come back to my Gran
Catherine Kelly I've not been able to find her birth or her 2 siblings

John Kelly 1882 Manchester
Catherine Kelly 1884 Manchester
Annie Kelly 1888 Manchester

Their parents were James Kelly and Catherine Fox who married 16 Oct 1882 Chorlton Manchester , Got the 1891 census which has them on and I've been able to go on from there but I always come back to why can't I find Their births They did have another sister Mary 1899 I've got her birth

Thank you