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Hi this is my husbands ggggrandad.the mystery if anyone can help is the name spruce.as up until him the family were spruce .my hubbies grandad was caldwell spruce etc it seems william was married twice to a mary green and a mary bracegirdle, but had a son maybe out of wedlock with a mary spruce who was named caldwell spruce b 1816. now the mary spruce i found seems to have the same birth details as mary bracegirdle? and on the census at age 74 is living with elizabeth bracegirdle. big mystery , as maybe the family should be caldwells ?

To give us an idea of area:

Caldwell Spruce
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Caldwell Spruce
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Registration Year: 1892
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Altrincham
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 182


Caldwell Spruce
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Caldwell Spruce
Registration Date: Oct 1928
[Nov 1928]
[Dec 1928]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Bucklow
Inferred County: Cheshire
Spouse: Florence A Davies
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 370

EDIT:
The marriage is for a later Caldwell Spruce, not the one born in 1816!

No father mentioned at baptism, so illegitimate:

Caldwell Spruce
in the Cheshire, England, Parish Registers, 1538-1909
Name: Caldwell Spruce
Gender: Male
Record Type: Christening (Baptism)
Baptism Date: 27 Apr 1817
Baptism Place: Knutsford St John the Baptist, Cheshire, England
Residence Place: Cheshire, England
Mother: Mary Spruce

For our reference, and for the date - one of the marriages you mention:

William Caldwell
in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name: William Caldwell
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 18 May 1840
Marriage Place: Choriton-Upon-Medlock, Lancashire, England
Father: William Caldwell
Spouse: Mary Bracegirdle
FHL Film Number: 2112985
Reference ID: p15


William Caldwell
in the Cheshire, England, Parish Registers, 1538-1909
Name: William Caldwell
Gender: Male
Record Type: Christening (Baptism)
Baptism Date: 20 Dec 1789
Baptism Place: Cheshire, England
Residence Place: Cheshire, England
Father: William Caldwell
Mother: Sarah Caldwell



The other marriage:

William Caldwell
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
Name: William Caldwell [of Knutsford ]
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 04 Jun 1820
Event Place: St John the Baptist, Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Mary Green

Witnesses: William Green and Jane Green.

Marriage: 18 May 1840 All Saints, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Lancashire, England
William Caldwell - full age, Nursery Man, Widower, Knutsford
Mary Bracegirdle - full age, Spinster, Chorlton on Medlock
Groom's Father: William Caldwell, Nursery Man
Bride's Father: James Bracegirdle, Slater
Witness: Mary Jane Caldwell; Am. Stubbs
Married by Licence by: Chas. Burton LLD
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1861, Page 15, Entry 29
Source: LDS Film 2112986

Again for our reference:

This is the William who married Mary Bracegirdle - born Kirby, Lancs:

William Caldwell
in the 1851 England Census
Name: William Caldwell
Age: 61
Estimated birth year: abt 1790
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Caldwell
Gender: Male
Where born: Rirbey, Lancashire, England [Kirbey ]
Civil Parish: Knutsford Superior
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Lymm
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 34
Piece: 2163
Folio: 352
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
William Caldwell 61
Mary Caldwell 43
Emma Caldwell 10
John Thomas Caldwell 9
Anne Eliza Caldwell 7
Louisa Caldwell 3
Herbert Caldwell 1
Caroline Johnson 18
Emily Johnson 16
Sarah Leigh 16


CALDWELL, EMMA mms BRACEGIRDLE
GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 15


Ancestry assumes this is him in 1841:

William Caldwell
in the 1841 England Census
Name: William Caldwell
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1791
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Knutsford
Hundred: Bucklow
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
Neighbors:
Piece: 93
Book: 8
Folio: 16
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
William Caldwell 50 - not born in county
Mary Caldwell 30
Sarah Caldwell 20
Mary Caldwell 15
William Caldwell 15
Emma Caldwell 15 - an Ancestry user (David Caldwell) has corrected this to YOB 1840.

Tracy -
you say " up until him the family were spruce "

What evidence do you have for that?

His marriage record says his father Was William Caldwell, nurseryman.

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census from fmp

Near Knutsford Inferior, Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
.
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
William Caldwell Male 50 1791 -
Mary Caldwell Female 30 1811 Cheshire, England
Sarah Caldwell Female 20 1821 Cheshire, England
Mary Caldwell Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
William Caldwell Male 15 1826 Cheshire, England
Emma Caldwell Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
Alice Shallcross Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
William Caldwell's Census Details
Details taken from the original census record.
version

??????
Baptism: 20 Dec 1789 Parochial Chapel of Kirkby, Walton, Lancashire, England
William Caldwell - Son of William Caldwell & Sarah
Born: 2 Dec 1789
Notes: Registered 20 Decr 1789 by James Adcock
Baptised by: John Rigby Gill A. B. Minister
Register: Baptisms 1786 - 1810, Page 14, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1545852

my william caldwell was born 1789 , they were nurserymen from knutsford and huyton liverpool.. my fil is brian spruce his dad caldwell spruce as above married to florence , grandad cadwallader spruce then ggrandad caldwell spruce then goes to william caldwell ?

Spruce, Caldwell in tree "kay egerton riley spruce Family main" Remove
Cheshire, England, Parish Registers, 1538-1909No Image
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Name: Caldwell Spruce
Gender: Male
Record Type: Christening (Baptism)
Baptism Date: 27 Apr 1817
Baptism Place: Knutsford St John the Baptist, Cheshire, England
Residence Place: Cheshire, England
Mother: Mary Spruce

As no father is named on the 1817 baptism, you have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty who he was

in the 1851 United Kingdom Census Sample
1851 United Kingdom Census Sample No Image

Name: William Caldwell
Address: Booth Mills
Enumeration District: Knutsford Spr
County: Cheshire
Birth Place: Lancashire, England, Kirbey
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Relationship: Head
Marriage Status: Married
Occupation: Nurseryman
Household: View other family members

Name: Mary Caldwell
Address: Booth Mills
Enumeration District: Knutsford Spr
County: Cheshire
Birth Place: Cheshire, England, Over
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Relationship: Wife
Marriage Status: Married
Occupation: Nurserymans Wife
Household: View other family members

not looking for william maddie. fiqureing out how spruce became. and how mary spruce has same details as mary bracegirdle williams wife, and later lives with a bracegirdle. Caldwell became a slater and brace girdles were slaters ?

Caldwell Leaden
Last name Spruce
Marriage year 1837
Marriage date 18 Aug 1837
Marriage place Tarvin
Spouse's first name(s) Harriett
Spouse's last name Jackson
Bride's father's name John Jackson
City or town Tarvin
County Cheshire
Country England
Reference item 4 p 1

image shows father as william caldwell nurseryman

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Northwick Street, Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Male 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Harriot Spruce Female 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Harriot Spruce Female 2 1839 Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Female 0 1841 Cheshire, England
Sarah Hoult Female 60 1781 Cheshire, England
Mary Stevenson Female 15 1826 Cheshire, England
Mary Kinsey Female 25 1816 Cheshire, England
Thomas Kinsey Male 1 1840 Cheshire, England

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Tatton Street, Knutsford Inferior, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Head - Male 55 1816 - Cheshire, England
Harriet Spruce Wife - Female 54 1817 - Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Daughter - Female 29 1842 - Cheshire, England
Harriet Spruce Daughter - Female 20 1851 - Cheshire, England
Frank Spruce Son - Male 15 1856 - Cheshire, England

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Queen Street, Knutsford Nether, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Caldwell Spruce Head Married Male 65 1816 Slater & Builder Employing 3 Men & 3 Labourers Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Harriett Spruce Wife Married Female 64 1817 - Tarvin, Cheshire, England
Rebecca Spruce Daughter Single Female 39 1842 Slater Daur & Dressmaker Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Harriett Spruce Daughter Single Female 30 1851 Slater Daur & Dressmaker Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Frank Spruce Son Single Male 25 1856 Clerk In Coal Trade Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Kathleen H Spruce Grand Daughter Single Female 6 1875 Scholar Plumbley, Cheshire, England


SPRUCE, HARRIET JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 15

SPRUCE, FRANK JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 168

is this the census you refered to

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Princess Street, Nether Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary Caldwell Head Unmarried Female 53 1808 Independent Landed... Over, Cheshire, England
Emma Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 20 1841 ... Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Anne E Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1844 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Louisa Caldwell Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Herbert Caldwell Son Unmarried Male 11 1850 Scholar Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Eliza Bracegirdle Niece - Female 14 1847 Scholar Over, Cheshire, England
Harriet A Morris Boarder Unmarried Female 12 1849 Scholar Chelford, Cheshire, England
Clara E Taylor Governess Unmarried Female 22 1839 Teacher London, Middlesex, England
Mary Silver Servant Unmarried Female 28 1833 House Servant Ireland

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
CALDWELL, HERBERT BRACEGIRDLE
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 19 Page 16

eliza is the daughter of marys brother matthew

Please can you say where you have found the details of Mary Spruce which you say are the same as those of Mary Bracegirdle?

For our reference - 1861 where Mary is with a Bracegirdle;

Mary Caldwell
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Mary Caldwell
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: 1808
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Over, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Nether Knutsford
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 159
Piece: 2593
Folio: 16
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Caldwell 53
Emma Caldwell 20
Anne E Caldwell 17
Louisa Caldwell 13
Herbert Caldwell 11
Eliza Bracegirdle 14 - niece
Harriet A Morris 12
Clara E Taylor 22
Mary Silver 28


I don't see what the problem is with that - Mary was a Bracegirdle before she married, so Eliza is obviously the child of one of her brothers.

I don't see her with a Bracegirdle in 1881, which is presumably the record you're talking about.

Name: Mary Spruce
Age: 74
Estimated birth year: 1797
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Knutsford Cheshire England
Civil Parish: Knutsford Inferior
Ecclesiastical parish: Knutsford Inferior
Town: Knutsford
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Altrincham
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 60
Piece: 3687
Folio: 8
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Spruce 74
Elizabeth Bracegirdle 85
?

her death

MARY
Last name SPRUCE
Gender Female
Age 80
Birth year 1797
Death year -
Burial year 1877
Burial date 19 Dec 1877
Death place Knutsford

a maybe
Mary
Last name Spruce
Gender Female
Birth year 1798
Birth date 16 Nov 1798
Baptism year 1798
Baptism date 08 Dec 1798
Place Knutsford, St John the Baptist
County Cheshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Spruce

1851
King Street, Nether Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Mary Spruce Head Widow Female 50 1801 Pedlar Cheshire, England
Daniel Dignum Lodger Married Male 40 1811 Silk Weaver Ireland
Mary Dignum Lodger Married Female 40 1811 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
Mary Dignum Lodger - Female 4 1847 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
John Smith Lodger Widower Male 60 1791 Blacksmith Middlewich, Cheshire, England

1841
King Street, Knutsford, Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Mary Spruce Female 42 1799 Cheshire, England
a widow

different to

mary b bapt 1807
Name: Mary Bracegirdle
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 20 May 1807
Baptism Place: Old Dissenting Chapel-Presbyterian,Nether Knutsford,Cheshire,England
Father: James Bracegirdle
Mother: Lydia
FHL Film Number: 0020049 (RG4 190)