Find Ancestors

Thank you for all your help with my search, it is much appreciated. Not sure where to go with this at the moment, if anywhere, so will give it a rest for a while. Perhaps I will never know

Marriages Dec 1871 (>99%)
BARBER Ann Elizabeth Greenwich 1d 1230
Mann Martha Greenwich 1d 1230
Warrior Robert Greenwich 1d 1230
Withyman George Greenwich 1d 1230

Record Transcription:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

37, Constance Road, Camberwell, London & Surrey, England
Learn about this record set
What can I do with this record?
View Image
Add To Tree
Report an Error
Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Martha Withyman Head Widow Female 35 1846 Gardeners Wife Norwich, Norfolk, England
Albert Withyman Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Sydenham, Surrey, England
Alfred Withyman Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Letitia Withyman Daughter Single Female 4 1877 - Dulwich, Kent, England
William Withyman Son Single Male 2 1879 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Caroline Mann Sister Single Female 26 1855 Laundress Norwich, Norfolk, England

I saw his death on the last page of army records which said died after discharge and dated 12/5/1936 so I assumed that was when he died, but most probably the date they were informed

Albert George Withyman
in the Australia, Death Index, 1787-1985
Name: Albert George Withyman
Death Date: 1936
Death Place: New South Wales
Father's Name: John <<<<<<<<<<<<<< ???
Mother's Name: Martha
Registration Year: 1936
Registration Place: Randwick, New South Wales
Registration Number: 2806



Albert G Withyman
in the Sydney, Australia, Cemetery Headstone Transcriptions, 1837-2003
Name: Albert G Withyman
Death Date: 23 Mar 1936
Burial Place: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Cemetery: Rookwood
Section: 14
Row: 43
Inscription: Gunner. 18922, 12 Army Brigade, A.F.A. At rest after long suffering (Military headstone)
Denomination: Anglican

Albert Withyman
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Albert Withyman
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relationship to Head: Son
Mother: Martha Withyman
Gender: Male
Where born: Sydenham, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 37 Constance Rd
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration District: Camberwell
Sub registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors:
Piece: 674
Folio: 77
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Martha Withyman 35
Albert Withyman 8
Alfred Withyman 6
Lelitia Withyman 4
William Withyman 2
Caroline Mann 26


Albert Withyman
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Albert Withyman
Gender: Male
Age: 18
Relationship: Servant
Birth Year: 1873
Birth Place: Sydenham, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Residence Place: Newington, London, England
Registration District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub registration district: St Mary Newington
ED, Institution or Vessel: 13
Neighbors:
Piece: 366
Folio: 58
Household Members:
Name Age
Arthur Cutner 53
Emilie Cutner 25
Dara H Darwell 22
Annie Hopking 24
Alice M Acomb 21
Charles J Balderson 27
Richard L Lyle 20
John J Dones 23
George Hollands 24
Albert Withyman 18
Alfred Hewitt 22
Florence Minnard 19
Mary Hartley 29
Sarah Berman 19



A G Withyman
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: A G Withyman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Age: 36
Port of Departure: Montreal
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 13 Oct 1910
Vessel Name: Tokomaru

Occupation: trimmer [crew member ]
Birthplace: Sydenham.

Back to Albert George -

Albert George Withyman
in the Web: UK, Royal Marines Registers of Service Index, 1842-1925
Name: Albert George Withyman
Birth Date: 18 Sep 1873
Enlistment Date: 18 Mar 1892
Division: Royal Marine Light Infantry: Portsmouth Division
Register Number: 6184


A tree on Ancestry has a scanned copy of a funeral notice, apparently dated 24 March 1936:

WITHYMAN
The relatives and friends of Mrs Lavinia Withyman and family are invited dto attend the funeral of her beloved husband and their loving father Albert George ; to leave his late residence 27 Charlecote Street, Dulwich Hill this day at 1.45 pm, for the Church of England Cemetery, Rookwood, per motor service.
Walters and Son, The Funeral Directors, Dulwich Hill Terminus.

My Albert George was a Bootmaker, the same as his father George Read, strange that Withyman says he is a Bootmaker as well, also I`ve looked at the name Albert when it is written on marriage certificate, census and Withymans army records and they all look very similar?

No, I hadn't noticed that Albert had died in 1936 - will look again.

EDIT: NO, I don't see any mention of his death on the army record.




Re son :

Albert Alfred Withyman
in the Australia, Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Name: Albert Alfred Withyman
Spouse Name: Edith Daisy Allpress
Marriage Date: 1938
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Sydney, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1938
Registration Number: 6084

Albert Alfred Withyman
in the Australia and New Zealand, Find A Grave Index, 1800s-Current
Name: Albert Alfred Withyman
Death Date: 1979
Cemetery: Palmdale Lawn Cemetery & Memorial Park
Burial or Cremation Place: Palmdale, Central Coast Council, New South Wales, Australia


Not posting everything about him - there are also school records in London, and Australian ERs.

Baptism of son Albert Alfred:

Albert Alfred Withyman
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Name: Albert Alfred Withyman
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 12 Feb 1905
Baptism Place: Blackheath Hill Holy Trinity, Greenwich, England
Father: Albert George Withyman
Mother: Lavinia Ann Withyman
Register Type: Parish Registers


Mr A A Withyman
in the UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Mr A A Withyman [ bootmaker ]
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Birth Date: abt 1905
Departure Date: 24 Jul 1926
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Orama
Shipping Line: Orient Line
Official Number: 146024
Master: Captain W S Shelford

Travelling with Lavinia (age 47) .
Address: c/o Mrs Skeggs, 74 Camberwell New Road, SE5

don`t want to interfere with your train of thought but did you notice at the end of all the paperwork that Withyman died in 1936 in Australia

With Albert George Withyman:

Lavinia Withyman
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Lavinia Withyman
Electoral Date: 1918
Street Address: 119 Tenement [ 119 The Albany on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Camberwell
County or Borough: Southwark, England

Marriages Dec 1903 (>99%)
SKEGGS Lavinia Greenwich 1d 1725
Withyman Albert George Greenwich 1d 1725
WITHYMAN Albert Georgo Greenwich 1d 1725

So, this is that man's birth record:

Births Sep 1872 (>99%)
WITHYMAN Albert George Lewisham 1d 895


However, I don't know if he's your Albert George Read, who had therefore been using a false name when he married Minnie in 1893 - or if he's a different person!

I'm inclined to think he's the same, because we can't find A G Read in any records apart from his 1893marriage (as far as I can remember without trawling back through this long thread).

I think the marriage in 1903 took place in Greenwich London

W Withyman had previously written to the authorities on May 19th 1920 , saying,
"Could you inform me the address or any information of A G Withyman (Gunner) . . . . who returned to Melbourne about the month of July 1919."


Copy of a birth cert:

Lewisham.
23 August 1872, at Rose Cottage.
Albert George (boy).
Father: George Withyman, gentleman's gardener.
Mother: Martha Mary Ann Withyman, formerly Mann.
Address: Rose Cottage, Kent House Road, Lower Sydenham.

Letter (24 Oct 1916) asking for Albert to be questioned re Lavinia's assertion that he had enlisted under the false name of Read, and that he was really Withyman.

Declaration signed by Albert, October 1916, that:
1 - he'd enlisted as Albert George Road, which he now acknowledges to be incorrect.

2 - that Albert George Withyman is his corrrect name, per the enclosed birth cert.

3 - he's married, and wife still living.
4 - he has 2 children aged under 16, and he attaches birth certs.
5 - he's living with his wife, and she and the children are dependent on him for maintenance.


[ I know the chronology jumps around, but I've just reported on things in the order I found them as I worked through the army record.]

For our reference:

Albert George Withyman
in the Australia, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Albert George Withyman
[George Read]
Age: 42
Birth Year: abt 1872
Birth Place: Sydenham, England
Dossier Year Range: 1914-1920
Enlistment Place: Holdsworthy (Holsworthy), New South Wales
Service Number: 18922

Joined on 26/10/1915.
Albert George Read Withyman.
"Natural born"

Had been in the Royal Marine Light Infantry for 10.5 years previously; invalided out.

He signed the forms as Albert George Read.
NOK : Gossage as Josephine says.

Name changed to Withyman by Statutory Declaration on 31/10/1916.

Later (form possibly dated 1918) NOK is said to be his wife, Lavania Withyman, 27 Albany Road, Camberwell. (I assume that's Australia, not England) But then that's been scored out.

Another form refers to Lavinia as widow, with address 27 Charlscot (?) Street, Dulwich Hill, NSW

Served in France 1916-17. Hospitalised in England 1918 with duodenal ulcer and gastritis. (Quenn Mary's Hospital, Whalley.)
Returned to Australia for discharge, 1918.
Discharged from army 27/7/1918.

Lots of pages with details of miltary service.

In 1916, "three birth certs and one marriage cert herewith should these be returned to soldier."
Lavinia signed dthat she'd received these on 10/11/1916.


Marriage:
Albert George withyman and Lavinia Skeggs, 26/12/1903.
Registered at Somerset House, London, but the copy dated 1916 doesn't say where the marriage took place.

Children:
Albert Alfred Withyman - 15 Nov 1904;
Bessie May Withyman - 17 March 1906.

Cable dated 14 Feb 1918, to Lavinia at 27 Albany Road, Camberwell, NSW, asking her if Gunner A G Withyman (No 18922) is the same person as Gunner A G Read (18922), as they had no record of A G Withyman .

Cable stamped "Not known by letter carrier Camberwell".

Cable sent again, on 26 Feb 1918 to same address but victoria instead of NSW.
That also returned unclaimed.

Another sent on 8 April 1918, to F Gossage, 56 Premier Streeet, Marrickville, NSW, asking the same thing.

Albert's said to have returned to Australia on board "Marathan" on 12/6/1918, but they don't know where he is - dated 18 May 1920.
That's sent to Mr W Withyman, Pilot Station, S W Rocks, Macleay River, NSW., asking if he knows anything.


More to follow . . . . .

Back again but still looking for Albert George Read born 1872. Followed a suggested `hint` for Alfred George Withyman and found information in National Archives of Australia which makes interesting reading but confusing at the same time. Information relates to A G Withyman who is in the Australian Forces. On 1st November 1915 there is evidence that this man had changed his name from Albert George Read who it says was born in England. There are 72 pages in the paper work which I have been trying to decipher and was hoping that some one would have the time to also have a look. There is so much information from National Archives of Australia, basically he is Albert George Read who in 1915 changes his name and names a friend Frederick Gossage as next of kin. Later he changes his next of kin to his wife Lavinia Withyman. The Australian authorities made many enquiries as to who this man really is. I would be very very grateful is someone could give me their opinion. thanks Jo

think you are right because I saw somewhere that the Albert I found was 38 years old at death, does not fit with my Albert`s birth year
Thanks for looking

Might this be that man in 1911?
Admittedly, somewhat 'out of area' when compared with the death, but the name and age are more fitting

Name: Albert Edward Read
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Brother
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: 26 Grosvenor Road, Upton, Forest Gate E
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Hotel Engineer
Registration District: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration District: Forest Gate
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Piece: 9382