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WOW........thank you so much for your time and expertise, will keep on looking

Albert a bootmaker on marriage record,not a Bookmaker

Maryb

thanks for that

One of the witnesses to Albert & Minnie's marriage was a Nelson Read


???????1871
Name: Nelson Read
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: 1870
Relation: Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Greenwich Kent England
Civil Parish: Greenwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
Town: Greenwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich West
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Household schedule number: 56
Piece: 755
Folio: 27
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
George Read 23*************************************Shoemaker
Amy Merian Read 20
Nelson Read 1

READ, NELSON OLIVER
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 758

READ, ALBERT GEORGE OLIVER
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 837


1881

Name: George Read
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Emmie Read
Gender: Male
Where born: St Andrews, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 90 Bidder St
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Bootmaker
Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 26a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1717
Folio: 108
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
George Read 33
Emmie Read 31
Nelson Read 11
Albert Read 8
Jessie Read 4
Alice Read 2

am just about to restart entering new information to tree, without the Albert connection on the wedding certificate I would still be following the wrong line of enquiries, just proves that you shouldn`t really take too much notice of others family trees, again thanks to all for help

Never, ever, take info from someone else's tree without verifying that it is 100% accurate

Name: George Read
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 30 Aug 1868
Marriage Place: St Paul, Greenwich, Greenwich, England
Father: Charles Read
Spouse: Amy Marian Oliver
Father: Walter Oliver
Register Type: Parish Register

Name: George Read
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 24 Jun 1847
Baptism Date: 26 Nov 1853
Baptism Place: Old Church,Saint Pancras,London,England
Father: Charles Read
Mother: Hannah

Name: Amy Marian Read
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Registration Year: 1896
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 45
Registration district: West Ham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 46

You have given me a lot of information to decipher and find for myself, the deaths of William and Edna seem right because the family have lived in the Havering area for many years. I

Can't see William in censuses, nor his parents Albert and Minnie .

Looks like a brother of William:

READ, ALBERT HENRY mms RANDALL
GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1331


Albert Henry Read
in the New Zealand, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Albert Henry Read
Birth Date: 8 Feb 1894
Birth Place: Barding Essex England
Enlistment Date: 10 Oct 1916
Next of Kin: Mrs S A Nelson, Tikinui, Auckland
Next of Kin Relationship: Aunt
Father: Herbert Henry Read <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ??
Father Birth Place: England
Mother: Minnie Eugene Read <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother Birth Place: England
Service Number: WW1 38595.

Had been in NZ four years; parents still in England.
Occupation: gravedigger [ Correction: gum digger . ]

Re gum diggers:
https://teara.govt.nz/en/kauri-gum-and-gum-digging/page-2


??
Albert Henry Read
in the New Zealand, Cemetery Records, 1800-2007
Name: Albert Henry Read
Death Age: 76
Birth Date: abt 1894
Death Date: 20 Apr 1970
Death Place: Whangarei
Burial Place: Whangarei, Northland
Cemetery : Maunu RSA




Sister??

READ, SUSAN EMILY mms RANDALL
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 95

Susan Emily Read
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Susan Emily Read
Estimated birth year: abt 1897
Registration Year: 1897
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 0
Registration district: West Ham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 42

have spent time looking for Minnie and Albert plus William on censuses but like you unable to see them, would there be a reason for this? surely they wouldn`t be missed

Can't see Minnie before marriage, either.

A rather sketchy tree on Ancestry has her ( as the mother of the Albert Henry in NZ) as born 1870 in Spitalfields - but no proof offered.
Albert Henry is the main focus of the tree, with his wife and children. For his parents it only gives their names as on his army record (Herbert Henry and Minnie Eugene) but no details for them .

Her marriage record says her father William was a seaman, so he may be no help re censuses, as he may have been away at sea.

I wondered if she could have been illegitimate and therefore registered under her unknown mother's surname.

There are a surprising number of Minnie Eugenia's (or variation of spelling).
This one is illegitimate:

LEWIS, MINNIE EUGENIA AUGUSTA -
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in ROMFORD Volume 04A Page 133


Minnie Eugenia Augusta Lewis
in the Essex, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1518-1960
Name: Minnie Eugenia Augusta Lewis
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 28 Jul 1868
Baptism Place: Barking, Essex, England
Father: [No Name]
Mother: Maria Lewis
FHL Film Number: 1471843


EDIT:
NO, she died:

Minnie Eugenie Augusta Lewis
in the London, England, Church of England Deaths and Burials, 1813-2003
Name: Minnie Eugenie Augusta Lewis
Age: 18/12
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1868
Death Date: abt 1869
Burial Date: 4 Dec 1869
Burial Place: Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth, Lambeth, England
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript

can you suggest any certificate that I can order that may help verify any of this? would it be worth sending for Williams birth certificate? having said that I know his fathers name was Albert from the marriage certificate i have

It would at least verify his parents' names.

Also (if you feel it's worth it) Albert Henry's birth cert - it's interesting that his father is Herbert Henry on his army record.

Re Minnie, with the Spitalfield suggestion in mind.

( I know the mention of Spitalfields was just in someone's tree with no proof, and this one's father doesn't appear to be a seaman, so it may be a red herring.

Minnie Eugenia's father William was deceased by the time of her marriage.):

???
RANDALL, MINNIE mms STOREY
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 839



Minnie Randall
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Minnie Randall
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: 1869
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Spitalfields Middlesex England
Civil Parish: Norton Folgate
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Artillery
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 205
Piece: 503
Folio: 78
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
William Randall 39 - Faversham, [harness ??] master
Mary A Randall 35
Henry Randall 10
Elizabeth Randall 4
Minnie Randall 2
Joseph Martin 54


Minnie Randall
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Minnie Randall
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Mother: Mary A. Randall
Gender: Female
Where born: Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Botolph Bishopsgate
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 28 New Street
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: London City
Sub registration district: St Botolph
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors:
Piece: 370
Folio: 77
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary A. Randall 46 - widow, Cork
Elizabeth Randall 15
Minnie Randall 12
Frederick Randall 9
Emma Randall 7


Minnie Randall ( With mother Mary A, and siblings Elizabeth, Frederick, and Emma)
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Name: Minnie Randall
Admission Age: 12
Discharge Age: 12
Record Type: Admission and Discharge
Birth Date: abt 1869
Admission Date: 16 May 1881
Admission Place: Tower Hamlets, Stepney, London, England
Discharge Date: 16 May 1881
Discharge Place: Tower Hamlets, Stepney, London, England


Minnie Randall
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Name: Minnie Randall
Discharge Age: 21
Record Type: Discharge
Birth Date: 1868
Discharge Date: 15 May 1889
Discharge Place: Southwark, Camberwell, London, England

thanks for your time and research, will order both certificates, taking at least a week to come through at the moment

Birth certificates arrived.....reg. district Woolwich, sub district East Plumstead
William Richard Read, born 28th May 1895, can`t read the street name where born, could be Sper--------
fathers name Albert Read
Mothers name Minnie Eugenia Read formerly Randall
Fathers occupation boot repairer, journeyman
signature, description, residence Albert Read, father, 8 White Conduit Street Islington

It looks like the information by Mary b was correct as dates of birth correspond which puts William Richard in prison on 1939 census

same reg. district
Albert Henry Read born 8th February 1894, address 81 Station Road
Father Albert Read
Mother Minnie Eugenia Read formerly Randall
fathers occupation Bootmaker, journey man
residence 81 Station Road Plumstead

Still looking for evidence in census for family

No-one has been able to find it - and they've tried! :-( :-( :-(

Thank you!!! for your time